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 Robert Carroll
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#83645
frk,

The difference boils down to how hesitant answer choice (E) would make you about the conclusion of the argument. The fact that an artist is depicting a battle that happened before he was born seems completely meaningless. I'd venture to say that most depictions of battles are not painted live as they occur, so they occur at least a little after the battle! And it doesn't seem to make any more difference that a battle happened before the artist was even born. So answer choice (E) makes 0 difference.

Answer choice (D) doesn't prove the artist was misidentified, but this is a Weaken question. All I want to do is to make the argument at least somewhat weaker. And showing that, if the conclusion is true, the artist would have breached etiquette makes me at least somewhat hesitant to conclude that the artist was doing that. Of course people can breach etiquette. But there's at least some reason to think that, all other things being equal, people will try not to breach etiquette. So answer choice (D) gives us some reason for being less sure of the conclusion. Answer choice (E), even if true...does nothing at all.

Robert Carroll
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 Taisiya
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#89514
Hello,



I'm sorry that this question is coming in quite late, but for the life of me I can't seem to arrive at peace, or rather - the breakthrough, that I need in order to absorb your thought-process for other similar questions. Thank you ahead of time for your help!:D

I chose E, which in my understanding, far surpassed D, because it made the event (of the painting depicting the artist's face) become impossible, rather than unlikely. According to E, if the battle occurred later, then painting it earlier is possible ...with the help of a very flexible (if not magnanimous) imagination. Sure, the painter could've been exposed to the battle through some extra-sensing dream or whatnot, but other than something of an extreme outlier to reality - the painting happening earlier than the battle itself is comparable to taking a photograph/writing a story of an event that has had yet to occur. Again - in my world, E makes the entire argument next to impossible.

D on the other hand, while weighty, doesn't offer the destructive impact to the argument that does E (per my current perspective). While social constraints, morals, values, ethics, and etiquette are of significance in how one would be expected to behave - the chances of the painting being produced under those circumstances increases quite a bit. Perhaps the artist painted himself and hid the painting from being revealed during the times (even if the entirety of their life) that those etiquette practices were in place, making the coexistence of the painting with the social norms a possibility.

Can you please help me sort this out? Thank you!
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 Taisiya
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#89515
Taisiya wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:35 pm Hello,



I'm sorry that this question is coming in quite late, but for the life of me I can't seem to arrive at peace, or rather - the breakthrough, that I need in order to absorb your thought-process for other similar questions. Thank you ahead of time for your help!:D

I chose E, which in my understanding, far surpassed D, because it made the event (of the painting depicting the artist's face) become impossible, rather than unlikely. According to E, if the battle occurred later, then painting it earlier is possible ...with the help of a very flexible (if not magnanimous) imagination. Sure, the painter could've been exposed to the battle through some extra-sensing dream or whatnot, but other than something of an extreme outlier to reality - the painting happening earlier than the battle itself is comparable to taking a photograph/writing a story of an event that has had yet to occur. Again - in my world, E makes the entire argument next to impossible.

D on the other hand, while weighty, doesn't offer the destructive impact to the argument that does E (per my current perspective). While social constraints, morals, values, ethics, and etiquette are of significance in how one would be expected to behave - the chances of the painting being produced under those circumstances increases quite a bit. Perhaps the artist painted himself and hid the painting from being revealed during the times (even if the entirety of their life) that those etiquette practices were in place, making the coexistence of the painting with the social norms a possibility.

Can you please help me sort this out? Thank you!


Sorry - one more thing on D - or another possibility would be that the artist was painting for a client out of their country, where such a constraint was not recognized/practice. Lastly, the artist could've been a rebellious soul and may have purposefully demonstrated their neglect towards expectations of art that he didn't agree with, and may have intentionally gone the route of painting himself in it to make his opposition know. As you can see, D has birthed numerous aspects that E did not, in allowing for both assumption and argument to not contradict each other to the point of everything falling apart. Thank you!
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 ToadKing
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#89655
Taisiya wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:40 pm
Taisiya wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:35 pm Hello,



I'm sorry that this question is coming in quite late, but for the life of me I can't seem to arrive at peace, or rather - the breakthrough, that I need in order to absorb your thought-process for other similar questions. Thank you ahead of time for your help!:D

I chose E, which in my understanding, far surpassed D, because it made the event (of the painting depicting the artist's face) become impossible, rather than unlikely. According to E, if the battle occurred later, then painting it earlier is possible ...with the help of a very flexible (if not magnanimous) imagination. Sure, the painter could've been exposed to the battle through some extra-sensing dream or whatnot, but other than something of an extreme outlier to reality - the painting happening earlier than the battle itself is comparable to taking a photograph/writing a story of an event that has had yet to occur. Again - in my world, E makes the entire argument next to impossible.

D on the other hand, while weighty, doesn't offer the destructive impact to the argument that does E (per my current perspective). While social constraints, morals, values, ethics, and etiquette are of significance in how one would be expected to behave - the chances of the painting being produced under those circumstances increases quite a bit. Perhaps the artist painted himself and hid the painting from being revealed during the times (even if the entirety of their life) that those etiquette practices were in place, making the coexistence of the painting with the social norms a possibility.

Can you please help me sort this out? Thank you!


Sorry - one more thing on D - or another possibility would be that the artist was painting for a client out of their country, where such a constraint was not recognized/practice. Lastly, the artist could've been a rebellious soul and may have purposefully demonstrated their neglect towards expectations of art that he didn't agree with, and may have intentionally gone the route of painting himself in it to make his opposition know. As you can see, D has birthed numerous aspects that E did not, in allowing for both assumption and argument to not contradict each other to the point of everything falling apart. Thank you!
Hi Taisiya,

I'm not an instructor, but I had some troubles with this question too so I hope that I can help.

I think that you may have misinterpreted (E). Answer (E) says that the historic battle took place a "number of years before the birth of the artist" — it is not saying that the artist painted the battle scene before the battle occurred. This doesn't really do anything in terms of weakening the argument; a painter not being alive when a battle occurred does not preclude them from painting their interpretation of the events. For example, even though the Revolutionary War took place hundreds of years ago, some artists today continue to paint scenes from it.

Now, why does (D) weaken? The burden on us is not to prove that the painter did not paint the painting, but, rather, we just need to weaken the possibility that he did. Answer (D) lowers the odds that he painted the painting, regardless of whether he followed etiquette or was rebellious. For example, imagine that police believe that a man committed a robbery. Answer (D) would be like "But the footprints left at the scene — which are 100% linked to the perpetrator — indicate that the person was wearing stiletto heels, and there is a taboo against men wearing stiletto heels." Sure, the man still could have worn stiletto heels and committed the crime (and there certainly is nothing wrong with men wearing stiletto heels). But, it sure does make it more unlikely.

In other words, answer (D) is a broad-level statement that lowers the odd that it is the painter in question.

I hope this helped!
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 oq058418
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#89666
Adam, I see a serious problem in these three quotes:
As i see it, though, answer B is really just a "who cares?" answer choice. Who cares if the people in the painting looked like some actual people from history, whether living or dead, famous or not? Why would that make us doubt the conclusion that the artist who later became well known painted the painting when he was younger and just starting out?
and:
In my view, answer B raises no doubts at all. I would completely shrug it off. Don't try to rationalize why it could hurt the argument. Just ask yourself "does this make me worry about the conclusion?"
and:
I'll also weigh in on the somewhat passionate earlier discussion about answer C by saying that it, too, gives me no pause. I read it and said to myself "so what, who cares?" Okay, fine, artists use live models. What does that have to do with whether the artist painted the painting that includes a person that looks a lot like him? It gives me no reason to question the conclusion. It's a nothing burger.
In all of them, you evaluate answer choices in terms of whether they weaken the conclusion. But that's not what we've been asked to find. What we've been asked to find is an answer choice that weakens the argument, a very different task indeed. After all, just because an answer choice weakens the support relation between the premises and the conclusion (thereby making us worry about whether the argument is any good), that doesn't mean it weakens the conclusion at all or gives us any reason whatsoever to doubt that the conclusion is true. Lousy arguments are given for true conclusions all the time.

This matters because now we have no reason to reject (B) or (C). Sure, they give us no reason to doubt the conclusion, but so what? They might still undermine the alleged support provided by the premises for the conclusion, in which case they would be correct.

I think the premises can be (somewhat generously) simplified into this premise: one of the figures depicted as an aristocrat in the anonymous painting is a painter who lived when it was painted. From this, the argument concludes that this painter is the one who painted the anonymous painting. We're tasked with finding an answer choice that gives us a reason to worry about the inference from the premise to the conclusion, i.e. to think, "even if that premise is true, it turns out it doesn't really give us much reason to accept that conclusion."

I can see why (B) fails to weaken the argument. All it suggests is that the figure in question is (like the majority of the depicted figures) a real person from history. That has no tendency to undermine the inference from "that figure was a contemporaneous painter" to "he painted the painting". On the contrary, what would weaken the argument is if the figure depicted weren't a real person from history. The only way I can see (B) weakening the argument is if "from history" is (mis)interpreted to mean "from long before the painting was painted": that would suggest that the close resemblance should be discounted, thereby taking away our reason for thinking the figure depicted is the painter of the self-portrait.

(C) draws our attention to an alternative possibility in which the premise is true and the conclusion false: perhaps the contemporaneous painter was merely a model for someone else's painting. This is an alternative possibility that might have occurred to anyone reading the original argument. Unfortunately, (C) doesn't do anything to make that possibility more likely than it already was prior to reading the answer choices. It merely states that the practice in question was "not uncommon", and so we've learned virtually nothing about whether this painting did or did not involve the use of live models for the depicted figures. But even if (C) had told us outright that this painting definitely involved the use of live models, it's not clear whether that would weaken the argument, simply because it's not clear how common it was for a painter to use himself as a live model. If we knew that self-modeling was in fact rare and that the figures depicted were all live models, then I think that would weaken the argument. But (C) fails to do so as it stands.

But I don't think (D) weakens the argument either. Not merely because violations of etiquette are possible, but because violations of etiquette are rampant. If we're trying to figure out whether someone performed a certain act, learning that it would count as a violation of etiquette tells us nothing about whether they did it, unless we already know that the agent in question is scrupulous about etiquette and/or that the violation would be likely to be discovered. What do we know about this individual? Well, he's an artist, and of course artists are notorious for flying in the face of convention and even deliberately seeking to shock 'squares' and 'normals'. If anything, then, it's less likely than usual that etiquette matters to this individual. Would this violation be likely to be discovered? We have no idea. A battle scene presumably contains many figures, and we don't know how prominent the figure in question is. Nor do we know how recognizable or obscure a figure the artist was in society. Nor do we know whether the painting was even intended for public showing. In the end, then, we have no reason whatsoever to deem it unlikely that the artist committed this violation of etiquette, which means (D) fails to weaken the argument.

As for (E), there's nothing unlikely about an artist painting a battle that took place in the distant past. And I don't think anyone has suggested (A) is a good answer.

My conclusion is that this is a poorly composed LSAT question.
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 Taisiya
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#89669
Taisiya wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:40 pm
Taisiya wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:35 pm Hello,



I'm sorry that this question is coming in quite late, but for the life of me I can't seem to arrive at peace, or rather - the breakthrough, that I need in order to absorb your thought-process for other similar questions. Thank you ahead of time for your help!:D

I chose E, which in my understanding, far surpassed D, because it made the event (of the painting depicting the artist's face) become impossible, rather than unlikely. According to E, if the battle occurred later, then painting it earlier is possible ...with the help of a very flexible (if not magnanimous) imagination. Sure, the painter could've been exposed to the battle through some extra-sensing dream or whatnot, but other than something of an extreme outlier to reality - the painting happening earlier than the battle itself is comparable to taking a photograph/writing a story of an event that has had yet to occur. Again - in my world, E makes the entire argument next to impossible.

D on the other hand, while weighty, doesn't offer the destructive impact to the argument that does E (per my current perspective). While social constraints, morals, values, ethics, and etiquette are of significance in how one would be expected to behave - the chances of the painting being produced under those circumstances increases quite a bit. Perhaps the artist painted himself and hid the painting from being revealed during the times (even if the entirety of their life) that those etiquette practices were in place, making the coexistence of the painting with the social norms a possibility.

Can you please help me sort this out? Thank you!


Sorry - one more thing on D - or another possibility would be that the artist was painting for a client out of their country, where such a constraint was not recognized/practice. Lastly, the artist could've been a rebellious soul and may have purposefully demonstrated their neglect towards expectations of art that he didn't agree with, and may have intentionally gone the route of painting himself in it to make his opposition know. As you can see, D has birthed numerous aspects that E did not, in allowing for both assumption and argument to not contradict each other to the point of everything falling apart. Thank you!


Dear ToadKing,


You are SO correct. And so smart. I cannot find the face palm to the forehead emoji...otherwise I would be abusing it right about now! Thank you so much for taking your time to chew it up for me, and how I missed the direction of answer E is beyond me. I guess I'll just say - better done in practice than on the test itself?:D


Thank you SO VERY much!
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 boondoggle
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#108735
Hello,

I picked (C) rather than (D), like many in this thread, but for a reason that seems different.

(C) reads: "It was not uncommon in the Renaissance for painters to use live models in depicting people in their paintings."

In art history vernacular, a "live model" always designates someone other than the artist, and I'd argue that this meaning is even commonsense. It's completely redundant to say that an artist is the live model for his or her own self-portrait—who else could the model possibly be?

Taken this way, I interpreted (C) to be saying that it was not uncommon for painters to use live models other than themselves in their paintings. So, it would not have been uncommon for a different painter to use the artist who painted the self-portrait as a live model for the battle scene. This gives a perfectly plausible reason to weaken the argument, as it gives a very good justification as to why the artist who painted the self-portrait might not have painted the battle scene, despite the resemblance of the two figures in question.

In contrast, I'd echo what a lot of people have said in this thread—(D) is besides the point. Nothing in the prompt tells us that the artist who painted the battle scene was one to respect the etiquette of his time.

Any thoughts?
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 Jeff Wren
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#109095
Hi boondoggle,

I agree that a "live model" would generally refer to someone other than the artist.

I'd also agree with your assessment:

"Taken this way, I interpreted (C) to be saying that it was not uncommon for painters to use live models other than themselves in their paintings."

However, your next statement:

"So, it would not have been uncommon for a different painter to use the artist who painted the self-portrait as a live model for the battle scene."

does not follow.

Just because it was a common practice for painters to use live models, there is no reason whatsoever to assume that this particular artist (who painted the self-portrait) also worked as a live model for other painters. While it's theoretically possible, that is a big stretch. It seems far more likely that the artist would have painted himself into the painting, which is a practice that artists sometimes do.

Instead, we need a reason why this artist might not paint himself into this type of painting, and Answer D provides such a reason.

(Boondoggle, you may already know this, so the following explanation is more to give context for any other readers who may not.)

While it isn't required to answer the question, understanding the social/economic dynamics between artists and nobles during the Renaissance can help flesh out why Answer D might provide a stronger motive for an artist not to violate this etiquette than may be apparent to our modern way of thinking. These days, the ideas of social class and etiquette are often viewed as antiquated relics that are not to be taken too seriously.

During the Renaissance, nobles (along with the Church) were the primary patrons of artists. In other words, they were their employers/customers, so Renaissance artists had a strong motive for not upsetting/offending them, as the expression goes "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." Of course, there may have been some hot-headed young artists who didn't care about upsetting their patrons, but many understood that offending their patrons could directly impact their livelihood and took that into consideration.

You wrote that,

"Nothing in the prompt tells us that the artist who painted the battle scene was one to respect the etiquette of his time."

While this true, there is also nothing in the prompt that tells us that the artist didn't respect the etiquette of his time, and so, all else being equal, this answer provides a good reason why the artist might be inclined not to paint himself into this painting.

Between Answers C and D, it more reasonable to assume that not upsetting the nobles would be a good reason (although not conclusive) for this artist to refrain from violating etiquette than it is to assume that this artist happened to be the live model for some other painter who painted this painting.

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