Why not give Law School at chance at 34?

[Ajscheer]

Hi Dave (and maybe Jon?)

I messaged you quick on Twitter last night and you steered me here since some this is somewhat of a multi-fold question (well it's actually more like multiple questions).

In any case, deciding to likely give law school a shot at a bit later of an age than probably a good chunk of aspiring law students. Planning to take the October LSAT and have started doing some studying over the past couple of weeks. Since this question(s) is a bit all over the place I figured I'd drop this into the general forum since it covers a bit of admissions, school choices, costs and overall LSAT strategy for my situation.

Seeing that I'm going to be making somewhat of a mid-career shift my approach to law school is turning out to look a bit differently than just rolling out of undergrad and diving into law school. I graduated undergrad about 10 years ago, did pretty well (magna cum laude) don't remember the exact GPA and had a short stint in grad school at Emory in ATL. At that time I'd considered applying for a joint degree with a JD there, but ended up not going that direction. In any case, the desire sort of kept following me the last decade and after leaving grad school, working some different jobs, ending up in the wine industry for a bit and then having a pretty successful go at a sales career for a couple years I keep ending up back at law school and practicing law.

I live in Indiana and likely am going to be pretty landlocked in the state for life/personal reasons. Right now looking primarily at IU-Indy (potentially Bloomington) but have also been looking at some of the hybrid programs that have also been emerging. Namely the JDi program at Syracuse and the hybrid program at U of Dayton.

I know these hybrid programs are quite new so there isn't much data about employment or bar passage rate after graduation. The mostly online and asynchronous study plan doesn't seem un-appealing to me and may work well for me, although I think I would tend to prefer a more in-person experience. Likewise, I don't know how well some of these remote schools connect you with intern/externships and opportunities in your local area to start building some chops. Whereas somewhere like IU-Indy has that already built in. So first question is, what are the general thoughts and leanings towards these programs? I suppose some of it will have to revolve around some intuition and speculation since there aren't really real-world outcomes and examples at this point.

I'm very debt averse as well. Being that I would be jumping into a new career and field and have fewer years of practice and income I'm simply not looking to saddle myself with a good chunk of debt, as I maybe would have been more inclined to do at say 24 rather than 34. So the LSAT and undergrad GPA and hopefully work experience and personal statement are going to be crucial for me to hopefully come out in the end with very little and hopefully no debt. I know that the handful of schools I'm looking at right now all offer merit based scholarships so I'm banking on those.

All of this being the case, where should I be shooting at for LSAT score (obviously 180 I know that) but realistically given my leanings and intentions where should I hope to be sitting after taking the LSAT? I know the schools on my list, and IU-Indy aren't really high-ranked schools and I'm ok with that. I've become less concerned with prestige as I've gotten older and more interested in getting a good education and being able to practice law. I realize that the prestige a "big name" school might offer would help shoulder some of the burden of job opportunities and potential, but I'm not afraid of putting in the hard work on the back end (and in school) myself to generate the renown needed for success.

I could certainly elaborate more, but I think the general theme is here and can maybe dive in more in subsequent responses on the forum. So let's start there! If I was unclear or overly broad, I'm happy to distill some of these thoughts down more. In any case, I appreciate the insight and thoughts to my questions. Really love the podcast, really love the insight and I especially appreciate the venue to be able to discuss these ideas with you and other folks.

Thanks again, and all the best!

[Dave Killoran]

Hi A,

Thanks for the message! I've cut your post into various pieces and tried to respond along the way, which hopefully will make sense.

I live in Indiana and likely am going to be pretty landlocked in the state for life/personal reasons. Right now looking primarily at IU-Indy (potentially Bloomington) but have also been looking at some of the hybrid programs that have also been emerging. Namely the JDi program at Syracuse and the hybrid program at U of Dayton.

I know these hybrid programs are quite new so there isn't much data about employment or bar passage rate after graduation. The mostly online and asynchronous study plan doesn't seem un-appealing to me and may work well for me, although I think I would tend to prefer a more in-person experience. Likewise, I don't know how well some of these remote schools connect you with intern/externships and opportunities in your local area to start building some chops. Whereas somewhere like IU-Indy has that already built in. So first question is, what are the general thoughts and leanings towards these programs? I suppose some of it will have to revolve around some intuition and speculation since there aren't really real-world outcomes and examples at this point.

You are right about these programs being generally new and somewhat untested, and thus the perceptions aren't really set in stone yet. So, I'll toss out two related thoughts and hopefully that forms a cohesive picture:

• • The type of job you want after law school is an important factor here. If, for example, you have a job already lined up or just needed a degree to qualify for a certain type of position or promotion, then these programs are fine right now. But beyond that, these types of programs will always be at a disadvantage vs "traditional" in-person programs when it comes to hiring. I say that from the perspective of law firm hiring partners, who tend to be conservative and who go with what they know. Most people--but not all--will be better served by going the traditional route here is the bottom line.
  
  
  • Those online programs make it harder to build relationships both with other students and professors, which can be a marked disadvantage since so much of the legal world can be about who you know. Don't discount the value of those face-to-face connections when pondering this. Online/hybrid programs certainly have their advantages, and for some people it is decisive, but it will always be a plus/minus comparison when looking at both programs so it depends on what you value as to which one is best for you.

I'm very debt averse as well. Being that I would be jumping into a new career and field and have fewer years of practice and income I'm simply not looking to saddle myself with a good chunk of debt, as I maybe would have been more inclined to do at say 24 rather than 34. So the LSAT and undergrad GPA and hopefully work experience and personal statement are going to be crucial for me to hopefully come out in the end with very little and hopefully no debt. I know that the handful of schools I'm looking at right now all offer merit based scholarships so I'm banking on those.

I'm 100% with you here on the goal of paying as little as possible for school. Since your uGPA is locked and you've been out of school for a while, this means your LSAT becomes the primary thing you should focus on for now.

All of this being the case, where should I be shooting at for LSAT score (obviously 180 I know that) but realistically given my leanings and intentions where should I hope to be sitting after taking the LSAT? I know the schools on my list, and IU-Indy aren't really high-ranked schools and I'm ok with that. I've become less concerned with prestige as I've gotten older and more interested in getting a good education and being able to practice law. I realize that the prestige a "big name" school might offer would help shoulder some of the burden of job opportunities and potential, but I'm not afraid of putting in the hard work on the back end (and in school) myself to generate the renown needed for success.

A few thoughts here that might help:

• • Prestige to me is a really a reflection of opportunity-generating options. Meaning, the legal field is very hierarchical, and you can use the ABA 509 reports to actually see how higher-ranked schools produce a generally higher set of results for their students. So, many students end up attempting to weigh prestige vs cost, so much so that we have a blog on this very topic: https://blog.powerscore.com/lsat/schola ... y-and-run/. You might find the comments the most interesting part there--students ask me questions there all the time about school decisions, and I have outlined the criteria I think they should use when they begin evaluating this crucial question. There is no single answer, and it varies depending on the person!
  
  • The answer to your LSAT scoring question can only be answered in connection with knowing your uGPA. I say that because that combination is the engine that powers your chances for scholarships at each school (sad but true). In absence of that, let's look at McKinney's medians, which are at: https://mckinneylaw.iu.edu/admissions/j ... files.html:
  
  
  • GPA: 3.23 / 3.45 / 3.69
    
    LSAT: 150 / 154 / 157
  
  Note: these LSAT numbers likely rise in 2021 due to the recent scoring bubble.
  
  You mentioned being magna cum laude, so I'm assuming you are at least at their median. That would suggest that scoring in the 160s is likely to get you into a spot where you start seeing offers, and mid-160s and higher will generate larger and larger offers.

I could certainly elaborate more, but I think the general theme is here and can maybe dive in more in subsequent responses on the forum. So let's start there! If I was unclear or overly broad, I'm happy to distill some of these thoughts down more. In any case, I appreciate the insight and thoughts to my questions. Really love the podcast, really love the insight and I especially appreciate the venue to be able to discuss these ideas with you and other folks.

Thanks again, and all the best!

Thanks so much for the kind words! We're always glad to help, and hopefully the above gives you some useful information to consider. If you have any followup questions, please feel free to post them

Have a great weekend!

[Ajscheer]

Hi Dave,

Thanks so much for the thorough and comprehensive responses. I was largely interested in your thoughts on the hybrid programs and your general insights to those. I suspected a similar response from you, but didn't know if there had been any other information that you had gleaned or come across since you seem to have your thumb on the pulse of admissions/post-graduation prospects. Seeing that the data or even anecdotal info from these programs doesn't even exist yet it makes all the more sense. I certainly don't want to be somewhat of a guinea pig and come out on the other end going...ok, now what?

Thanks for the links as well, eager to check out how you broke some of those questions now. I've been doing my due diligence when it comes to looking at ABA reports or things like lawschooltransparency.com for some of the places I've been investigating, but it is very helpful that you offered somewhat of a benchmark for me to look at while doing practice tests and taking the actual LSAT (along with deciding on re-taking).

Again, I really appreciate your quick replies and generous willingness to field questions. Navigating this process up front is overwhelming, but having some responses and insight help funnel some of the information into a more narrow perspective is incredibly helpful.

Several days now into studying logic games with the bible, so back to it for a bit, or at least until one of my eyes start to switch. Taking small swing at a time to chip away at the process. In a rough paraphrase of Bob Marley, "if you are a big tree, I am the small axe."

Cheers!