Picking up a law school

[kev2015]

Dear Powerscore,

I am a student who is planning on attending law school this fall 2016, and I am in the process of choosing a law school. So far, I have only heard from my backup schools, and have been waitlisted on a match (top 50) and reach school (top 25). As the first deposit deadline is April 15th, I would need to make a choice among my backup schools now. I have researched online, and asked people around, but i feel that the websites are not that reliable, and the people around me are either not that familiar with law school or are biased (because they've attended a certain law school). So I would need to seek some advice from you. And I really trust the powerscore team, because they always give such good suggestions! I value your advice a lot.

I want to study Intellectual Property, and my admitted schools are:
- Illinois Institute of Technology (Chicago-Kent law school) (3/4 scholarship)
- Penn state University (full scholarship)
- American university (with scholarship, haven't checked how much yet)
- University of Miami
- University of San Diego (with scholarship)
- Case Western University
- Santa Clara University

I personally prefer the east coast, and I like big cities. Paying up for the law school is not that important for me, if the law school can be better without the scholarship. Location is not important for me either, if the school is better in a certain location. For me, the most important factors, from most to least important are: 1) Ranking/reputation/employment prospects/starting salary, 2) Location (big cities+east coast/midwest), 3) Scholarship

I am so worried and confused about choosing the right school for me now, and I really hope to hear some advice from you!! I don't want to place multiple scholarships at multiple schools, I just want to pick one. Also, I am intending to visit law schools later, but currently I am asia, so I would like to wait and hear back from other schools first, and make a trip to the US to visit the schools altogether.

Thank you in advance for your time, patience, and help!! I really appreciate it.

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hi Kev,

Thanks for reaching out to us! This is a tough choice, particularly since all of the schools you've listed are safeties.

First, you need to realize that, when it comes to areas of specialization, schools vary much less than you think. They will all teach you the basics, allow you to pass the bar exam, and prepare you to specialize in IP law - assuming you have the science background, of course. As you pointed out yourself, what's more important is (1) the overall reputation of the school - national, reputable regional, or local, and (2) its location.

The schools you've listed are all regional schools, which offer very limited geographic flexibility. If you go to American, for instance, you're pretty much going to be practicing in DC; if you go to U Miami, you better be comfortable with the Florida heat - because that's where you'll be practicing after graduation. If I were interested in a job as an IP attorney but didn't get into any national schools (which makes the location of the school pretty much a moot point), I'd be looking for a school that places well in one of the following regions: Boston/New England, Silicon Valley, the Research Triangle (NC), maybe New York and Washington, DC.

To compare regional reputation and find out how each of the schools you've listed places in these regions, use these resources:

Law School Numbers

Top Law School Rankings

Above the Law Rankings

It's a lot of information to sift through, but you need to focus on answering the following questions:

• What is the job placement rate of each school you're considering in the region you'd like to work in?
• How much would it cost to attend?
• What class rank do you need in order to get the employment opportunities you seek after graduation?
• If a lower-ranked school offered you money, is it worth taking it?

One last piece of advice - unless you have cash to burn, don't discount the value of scholarship offers! IMO, top-14 national law schools are the only ones worth paying sticker price for; all other schools come with certain caveats and limitations, and the cost/benefit analysis is not always in their favor. From the schools you've listed, I'd only seriously consider Chicago-Kent and Santa Clara (because of their IP programs), along with American (good location, worth considering but check how much they are giving you). To put it bluntly, none of the schools you've listed is worth paying sticker for, and there are certainly much better schools - and locations - given your career objectives. Did you apply to Boston University? Boston College? UC Hastings or other schools in Northern California?

Hopefully, the resources I've listed make your choice a little easier. Last, don't lose hope on the schools you haven't heard from! I've had students get off the WL in June and July, especially those who took the June LSAT and scored significantly higher. If this is feasible, definitely consider it!

Best of luck!

[kev2015]

Dear Powerscore,

THANK YOU so much for the response. Your suggestions are always SO useful, and every time I get very anxious or frustrated, I always get to calm down when I talk to you and re-find direction in my studies.

Taking the LSAT a third time would NOT be an option for me, as I have already had three LSAT attempts. My LSAT score is at the 25% percentile for almost all top 20-50 law schools. Following your reply, I have just gotten acceptance into U of Houston, and from what i've looked online, it seems that it has the best reputation so far? I don't think that I have received scholarship for this one though.

Yes, I have applied to both Boston College and Boston University. I have also applied to Wake Forest, in North Carolina. And I would immediately accept the offer if admitted. But I haven't heard from them yet. In fact, I have almost applied to all top 20-30 law schools, except for several ones. And so far, all these schools, 1) either i haven't heard from them yet, 1) they have placed me on the waitlist. And I am getting a bit concerned over this. Is there anything that I can do for the waitlist, except for writing continued letter of interests?

And here is the most recent update on my current school acceptance progress.

The deposit deadlines that are due on April 15th, include:
- Chicago-Kent Law
- Miami U
- Case Western U
- Penn State
- American U
- Santa Clara

The deposit deadlines due on May 1st are:
- U of Houston (just got admitted yesterday).

The Waitlisted schools are:
- William and Mary (first choice, and would immediately accept offer if admitted)
- U of Richmond
- UC Hastings
- Washington and Lee (just got notification today)

So, with my most recent acceptance from U of Houston, is there any school that you think would be worth paying a deposit fee for April 15th? I prefer Boston, New York, Chicago the most, but I feel that if there is a school that is higher ranked and with better employment prospects, I am willing to give up location.

Again, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hi kev2015,

Thanks for the follow-up. I'm afraid you are making some pretty strong assumptions about what these rankings actually mean. Just because U Houston is ranked 59th on the 2015 US News Report while American is 71st doesn't mean that U Houston would give you better employment opportunities than American. Think of the rankings as tiers: you have the national, top-14 schools (where the top-3 are, arguably, in a tier of their own), then you have about 30 schools that I would consider reputable regional schools with some national recognition (think Fordham, BU, BC, Vandy, etc.). The rest of the first tier are all regional schools. If you want to practice in Houston or Texas, go to U Houston. (Have you been to Texas? Visit first.). If you want to live in DC, go to American. ALL the schools you've listed are regional schools, so location will matter a lot. None of them are necessarily more "prestigious" than the rest.

If I were in your shoes, I'd send a deposit to Penn State and call it a day. You might get into other schools, but even if you don't, you'll get a free legal education worth close to $200K and graduate with little to no debt. It's also worth noting that Penn State has a recognizable name on a national scale (and a decent institutional alumni base), even if it’s not the law school that’s garnered all that.

As far as waitlist decisions are concerned, if taking the LSAT in June is not an option, a letter of continued interest is really all you can do. Make sure to update the committees on significant new professional or academic achievements that were not reflected in your application. If the law school is your top choice, make sure to clearly indicate that in the letter.

Good luck!!

[Dave Killoran]

Hi Kev,

Let me add my two cents to Nikki's comments, which I think are spot on. The rankings aren't really graded out in such a way that a school ranked lower is automatically "worse" for you. Houston and AU are a perfect example of this—71 and 59 are too close and really should be considered to be in the same band of schools. Thus, the choice of those schools comes down to your preferences: which do you like better, what area do you prefer, the money, etc.

Nikki and I actually chatted about your question the other day, because it's a good one, and it's a decision that a lot of people face. At this point, I agree with the advice he gave at the end about Penn State. Penn State has one small advantage over the other schools: everyone (especially sports fans) has heard of the school and knows where it is. The undergrad has a national profile (not the same as a national reputation, however) and so when you walk into a room, the average person can say, "Oh yeah, I know that school" and there are more alumni of the school as well (not the law school though, just the undergrad). Chicago-Kent, as a comparative example, doesn't have that. And since Penn State handed you a full scholarship, to me they'd be the choice by a nose (by the way, Miami also has this national profile as well, but they apparently didn't pony up the cash, which knocked them way down in my estimation).

As an aside on the national profile comment, I've seen it make a difference just from where I went to school. Duke didn't always have a national profile, but after basketball team went into consistent powerhouse mode (thanks K!), the tenor of people talking about the school changed. When I was first going to go there, not everyone knew the school; now they do, and that recognition counts for something (caveat: it doesn't hurt that it's known to be a solid academic school; almost every Duke profile mentions academics, which is a big deal. Neither Penn State nor Miami get that bump).

Again, I don't see this is a be-all, end-all consideration, but among the schools you have, the full scholarship jumped out at me, and then one school stood above the others just on national profile. Even with that, it may not be the best school for you, but only you know the answer to that.

Anyway, I hope this helps!

[kev2015]

Dear Dave and Nikki,

THANK YOU SO MUCH for the messages, the suggestions, and for taking the time to thinking about my question. I really appreciate very very much everything that you have done, from the very start of my LSAT study to choosing a law school.

Following your suggestions, I have just paid a deposit at Penn State's Dickinson law, and Chicago-Kent. I also just found out that Penn state has actually two separate law schools - Dickinson Law, and Penn State Law (inside main campus). Among these two law schools, is there one that is better or more worth going than the other one? It seems to me that apart from location, they are exactly the same. But perhaps Penn state offers a bit more prestige, because it's located inside the main campus?

Also, yesterday, I have just been waitlisted at Indiana Maurer Bloomington, and got accepted into Georgia State U (seems that there is no scholarship). I have called U of Richmond (waitlisted status), and they said that I am likely to get off the waitlist and get accepted. So i am just wondering, with these new information, is there any school that is more worth going than Dickinson Law? For Georgia State, I really like the Atlanta location. For U of Richmond, I love their campus, but I am not too sure about their reputation in the US?

Also, one thing to take in note, I am an international student, so I may not be practicing in North America in the future. But of course, we never know what will happen in three years, so I still would like to keep that option open. But so far, my main target is to return back to my home country after JD graduation.

Again, thank you for all the help!!

[Dave Killoran]

Hey Kev,

Thanks for the update! I have a few thoughts on the new info:

Penn State: The rep of the two is about the same, although Dickinson is the newer school for them. If it was me, I'd go to the University Park campus simply because it's on the main campus and that gives you the full university experience. That, however, is a completely personal call and there's no indication that one school is better than the other.

Richmond: If you had been admitted at Indiana, I would have said that school would jump into the lead. However, Georgia State is a very local school (Atlanta) and the same is true for Richmond. I see neither as being more compelling than Penn State, despite each having a higher ranking. Special note for GaState since I used to live in Georgia: while it's a fine school, it sits a solid third in hiring in Atlanta because both Emory and Georgia are more highly-rated law schools and a lot of the grads stick around the area.

International: I think that everything we've said so far applies equally to whether you practice in the US or return home. So, even with that extra info (which I appreciate!), my advice would still hold. At the end of the day, though, you have to make the call you feel best about. You may feel a special pull towards one school or another, and if so, by all means follow your feelings. Students almost invariably perform better when they are happy and comfortable, and so making your time enjoyable has to be a very high priority.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

[kev2015]

HI Dave!

Thanks a lot for the suggestions! I agree with you, and will follow your advice. I will update you if I receive more acceptances/waitlists!!

[kev2015]

Dear Powerscore,

I hope that this message finds you well. I have some more updates regarding my schools which I would like to share and discuss with you about.

Following your suggestions, I have paid the deposit for Penn State Dickinson.

And I have recently been admitted by U of Connecticut and U of Maryland (scholarship 15000$ first year, and conditional for second, third year). Personally, I prefer Maryland more than Dickinson, both in terms of school reputation and location. I do not like very much the isolated location for U of Connecticut. According to top law school.com, it has a rich regional reputation, and seems to be "the best legal education offered in the state of Maryland". I have also read the powerscore thread regarding LSAT score/school ranking vs. income, and it seems that Maryland has a median salary of 158,000$, which is very close to the T14 salary. However, I would still like to know what do you think about Maryland?

And regarding my waitlisted law schools, I am still doing my best to get off the waitlists. I feel that there are several good law schools that I have been waitlisted at, but I just don't know what are the chances that I can get off the waitlist. I especially like William Mary, U of Illinois, Wake Forest.

My waitlisted schools so far are:
- William Mary
- U of Illinois
- Wake Forest
- U of Iowa
- Indiana Maurer, Bloomington
- Tulane
- Washington and Lee
- Richmond
- Northeastern
- UC Hastings

Thank you very much in advance for reading through this message, and for your time in writing suggestions!! I really appreciate your help!

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hey Kev,

Congrats on your admission to UConn and U. Maryland! These are both well-regarded regional schools, which will place very well in New England and the Mid-Atlantic states, respectively. Their reputation won't go much farther than their respective states, so you need to keep that in mind. Internationally, neither school has a reputation that is necessarily better than Penn State's, so our earlier recommendation to take the money and run still holds. However, if you were interested in practicing in New England or the Mid-Atlantic regions, you should give them serious consideration. As state schools, they are an especially good bargain for in-state residents.

While I do agree that UConn is somewhat isolated, I recommend that you visit Baltimore and check out the University of Maryland in person if it's something you're seriously considering.

Let us know if you get off the WL at any other school, and we'll be happy to weigh in, as always.

Thanks!