- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:58 pm
#34198
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Dov, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Dov's choice between Fordham Law School with a scholarship, or a lower-ranked school for a full ride.
Dov: "Hi! I was hoping you would be able to help me with my current situation. I currently have been accepted with full scholarships to Cardozo, U. Miami and St.John's, as well has $30,000 off each year at Fordham Law School ($90,000 in total). I am also currently on the waitlist of Cornell and waiting to hear back from Boston U.
I have narrowed down my options to Cardozo and Fordham, however, I am not sure if taking on debt is worth it if I can go for free to a pretty solid law school.
My biggest concern is job placement, specifically if I would be able to get somewhat of a well paying job out of Cardozo if I don't make the top 10%.
I am also very concerned with coming out of law school with debt, especially if I can have the same sort of outcome at the lower-ranked Cardozo.
In addition, do you believe I have any leverage on requesting more scholarship money from Fordham? And if so, how do you advise I should go about it?
Please let me know what you think! Thanks!"
Dave Killoran: Hi Dov, Thanks for the question! As a quick reference for you, earlier I had a Cardozo vs Fordham discussion, and you can find that here: lsat/viewtopic.php?t=13856&p=33875. The discussion and analysis there was a bit different since both choices resulted in some debt ($90K vs $195K, with that $90K being enough that it affected my recommendation, actually), but the basic idea--Fordham with more debt vs Cardozo with significantly less, is similar.
In that situation, there were certain stated employment goals that made Fordham more attractive than usual (since both resulted in a lot of debt, the extra debt was less troublesome), so in reading that please keep that in mind. In your case, I'm inclined to agree with you--if it's going to be basically free to go to Cardozo, that's incredibly attractive. Law school debt is non-dischargeable, so you are stuck with it no matter what. Thus, I always tend towards debt-free outcomes whenever possible.
Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. Fordham has the edge, BUT is it worth going about $218K into debt for? I have a *very* hard to believing it is worth that.
At the end you ask about negotiating with Fordham, and that's a smart move that I fully support. I'm currently working on a short article about negotiating with law schools, but I don't think it will be about for about two weeks. The bottom line is that you should try it here because there's clearly a chance you'd go to Fordham if they offered you more money (and you should have that figure in mind when you write them--don't be swayed because they offered you a little bit more; know beforehand exactly what number you think they need to reach to make it persuasive). I usually recommend negotiating by using offers from similar or more highly-ranked schools, but you don't quite have that option here. So, be direct with them. Explain that Cardozo (and St. Johns, to make your case even stronger) has given you a full ride and that you find that attractive. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming that's the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. I'd think there's a high chance they just sit tight here--while Cardozo is in the same area, Fordham is solidly higher in the USNews rankings than Cardozo (#36 vs #65, although neither school is in the top 50 according to the Above the Law rankings). Often when a school feels that the other school isn't in their bracket they just ignore them and won't negotiate. So that might happen here, but so what? Better to try it and see rather than wonder about it later. You unfortunately don't have much leverage here (if Cornell had accepted you it would have been a card you could have played) so give it your best shot and see what happens.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"
Dov: "One last question I just have, when talking about specific employment goals and future plans. If BIGLAW is not a must for me, do the rankings of law schools still matter?
I obviously want to have employment options and opportunities, and not only have to work in the public sector. But I'm just wondering if all this talk of rankings, prestige and connections matter most for BIGLAW."
Dave Killoran: Hey Dov, No, the rankings reflect general assessments of a law school, and thus they tend to come into play for any job situation. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. That's just basic human nature I think, and more a reflection of that than the legal field itself.
The Biglaw placements reflect not just the rankings but geographic location as well. But the same is true for clerkships and any highly desirable position. What it really comes down to is that law is a rather hierarchical field, and because of that the prestige of a school tends to be important. Are there exceptions? Certainly, and there are plenty of successful attorneys who didn't go to a T14 school. Thanks!"
Dov: "Hi! I was hoping you would be able to help me with my current situation. I currently have been accepted with full scholarships to Cardozo, U. Miami and St.John's, as well has $30,000 off each year at Fordham Law School ($90,000 in total). I am also currently on the waitlist of Cornell and waiting to hear back from Boston U.
I have narrowed down my options to Cardozo and Fordham, however, I am not sure if taking on debt is worth it if I can go for free to a pretty solid law school.
My biggest concern is job placement, specifically if I would be able to get somewhat of a well paying job out of Cardozo if I don't make the top 10%.
I am also very concerned with coming out of law school with debt, especially if I can have the same sort of outcome at the lower-ranked Cardozo.
In addition, do you believe I have any leverage on requesting more scholarship money from Fordham? And if so, how do you advise I should go about it?
Please let me know what you think! Thanks!"
Dave Killoran: Hi Dov, Thanks for the question! As a quick reference for you, earlier I had a Cardozo vs Fordham discussion, and you can find that here: lsat/viewtopic.php?t=13856&p=33875. The discussion and analysis there was a bit different since both choices resulted in some debt ($90K vs $195K, with that $90K being enough that it affected my recommendation, actually), but the basic idea--Fordham with more debt vs Cardozo with significantly less, is similar.
In that situation, there were certain stated employment goals that made Fordham more attractive than usual (since both resulted in a lot of debt, the extra debt was less troublesome), so in reading that please keep that in mind. In your case, I'm inclined to agree with you--if it's going to be basically free to go to Cardozo, that's incredibly attractive. Law school debt is non-dischargeable, so you are stuck with it no matter what. Thus, I always tend towards debt-free outcomes whenever possible.
Job outcomes here are obviously critical, and you should carefully peruse the LST Reports: See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/jobs and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/jobs. Fordham has the edge, BUT is it worth going about $218K into debt for? I have a *very* hard to believing it is worth that.
At the end you ask about negotiating with Fordham, and that's a smart move that I fully support. I'm currently working on a short article about negotiating with law schools, but I don't think it will be about for about two weeks. The bottom line is that you should try it here because there's clearly a chance you'd go to Fordham if they offered you more money (and you should have that figure in mind when you write them--don't be swayed because they offered you a little bit more; know beforehand exactly what number you think they need to reach to make it persuasive). I usually recommend negotiating by using offers from similar or more highly-ranked schools, but you don't quite have that option here. So, be direct with them. Explain that Cardozo (and St. Johns, to make your case even stronger) has given you a full ride and that you find that attractive. Tell them that you prefer Fordham (assuming that's the case), and ask not only for them to increase their offer but name a figure if you can. I'd think there's a high chance they just sit tight here--while Cardozo is in the same area, Fordham is solidly higher in the USNews rankings than Cardozo (#36 vs #65, although neither school is in the top 50 according to the Above the Law rankings). Often when a school feels that the other school isn't in their bracket they just ignore them and won't negotiate. So that might happen here, but so what? Better to try it and see rather than wonder about it later. You unfortunately don't have much leverage here (if Cornell had accepted you it would have been a card you could have played) so give it your best shot and see what happens.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"
Dov: "One last question I just have, when talking about specific employment goals and future plans. If BIGLAW is not a must for me, do the rankings of law schools still matter?
I obviously want to have employment options and opportunities, and not only have to work in the public sector. But I'm just wondering if all this talk of rankings, prestige and connections matter most for BIGLAW."
Dave Killoran: Hey Dov, No, the rankings reflect general assessments of a law school, and thus they tend to come into play for any job situation. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. That's just basic human nature I think, and more a reflection of that than the legal field itself.
The Biglaw placements reflect not just the rankings but geographic location as well. But the same is true for clerkships and any highly desirable position. What it really comes down to is that law is a rather hierarchical field, and because of that the prestige of a school tends to be important. Are there exceptions? Certainly, and there are plenty of successful attorneys who didn't go to a T14 school. Thanks!"