- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9029
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:18 pm
#34267
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Roy, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Roy's choice between three different law schools.
Roy: "Hey Dave, For the most part I have narrowed down my school list to three choices with statistics shown below (I say for the most part because I am waiting to here from UC Davis, which enough if awarded money I would highly consider).
However, I have a deadline of April 7th to make a decision for Loyola in Chicago, which I am also highly considering. The three schools I am really considering are as follows with the reports for pricing with scholarships, employment scores, and rankings. By far Washington & Lee is the best school and they still offered as much (or more) in financial aid. They have the best job placement by far, especially in DC a region I would highly consider working in. The theme between all the schools I applied to is a Public Interest/Human Rights/Social Justice Program. Of these three Northeastern has by far the best program with my specific interest and I loved the school when I toured. Loyola is still a good program and I received the Civitas Child Law Fellowship (8 student cohort per class, with additional funding toward externships). Although Northeastern's program I believe is overall better, I have already been pre-selected in a sense to be considered for many things at Loyola and I fear giving up such a fellowship would be a mistake. I have read your blog extensively and I am planning to ask Loyola to match the offer from Wash Lee and maybe that of Northeastern.
Another large concern is place of living. I was interested in moving to a city (never lived in one) and Wash Lee is certainly not in a city. But I did undergrad at Virginia Tech and thrived as a student in that similar VA environment. I feel it isn't what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school I've received a great package from?
Is Wash Lee too good of a deal at a great school to pass up on? Is a highly competitive fellowship with connections and resources in my field of interest to good of a deal to pass up on?
Loyola:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K - $123K = $127K
Employment Score: 51% Underemployment: 30%
US News: 72 ATL: NA
Northeastern:
Non-Discounted Price: $240.5K - $139.5K = $101K
Employment Score: 62% Underemployment: 24%
US News: 82 ATL: NA
Washington & Lee:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K - $127.5K = $106K
Employment Score: 74.5% Underemployment: 13%
US News: 40 ATL: 25
I would appreciate your thoughts,
Thanks, Roy!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Roy,
Thanks for the question! I'm going to weigh in, but before I do so I'll make a general request for anyone else to weigh in as well about the point I'll raise, namely whether one should go to a better-regarded school or one that is lower-ranked but has a specialty program in your area of interest.
My experience is that you should typically go with the better school. The specialty programs are nice, but law firms/judges/companies/governmental organizations all seem to look for the students with the best grades from the best schools. Specialty programs are considered a bonus, but they are window dressing of sorts--employers want the best lawyers, and they assume the best lawyers come from the better schools. So for me, W+L jumps right off the page as not only well-regarded across the board, but also priced basically the same as Northeastern. And, look at the W+L job numbers when they compare to the other two schools--it's not even close. This is the better-regarded school with far better job outcomes, all at the same cost. Plus, on the personal side, I've sent several students who were friends there who loved it, so I have anecdotal experience about the school that is very positive.
As far as location, I always say that it depends on the person. But, you've already thrived in a similar VA environment (your words!) and so you know that won't be an issue. And you will have far better job options after graduating, and can then choose a city option (and, to be honest, you don't want city distractions while in law school if you've never experienced them--you should be a study hermit while in school!).
Last, my compliments to both Loyola and Northeastern here--they've made this a legit argument by doing what smaller schools need to do to compete against better ranked schools: specializing in interesting programs and creating programs that appeal to narrow but highly committed bands of users. I can't give them enough compliments here for that and it's a strategy I strongly endorse for other schools in similar positions.
Ok, so I think I've stated my position here pretty clearly: aside from all the attractions and specialties elsewhere, I'd be all in on W+L given the job, cost, and prestige factors. However, you should seek alternate opinions. Ask some current law students and attorneys what they think about specialty programs and how they should be weighed vs overall job numbers and rankings. I'll also tweet this out from my personal account (https://twitter.com/DaveKilloran) and see if anyone wants to add their thoughts. And if anyone else is reading, by all means add your thoughts if you have any!
One more point: I'm a believer that the only opinion that counts is yours. If you feel like one of the other schools is the best call for you personally, then go with your gut. Only you know what will be best for you. Grades mean everything, and if another school puts you in the best spot to produce high grades, then it might be the better choice.
Please let me know if this helps, and good luck with the decision. I'd love to know which way you decide to go so please post back along the way! Thanks!"
Roy: "Hey Dave, For the most part I have narrowed down my school list to three choices with statistics shown below (I say for the most part because I am waiting to here from UC Davis, which enough if awarded money I would highly consider).
However, I have a deadline of April 7th to make a decision for Loyola in Chicago, which I am also highly considering. The three schools I am really considering are as follows with the reports for pricing with scholarships, employment scores, and rankings. By far Washington & Lee is the best school and they still offered as much (or more) in financial aid. They have the best job placement by far, especially in DC a region I would highly consider working in. The theme between all the schools I applied to is a Public Interest/Human Rights/Social Justice Program. Of these three Northeastern has by far the best program with my specific interest and I loved the school when I toured. Loyola is still a good program and I received the Civitas Child Law Fellowship (8 student cohort per class, with additional funding toward externships). Although Northeastern's program I believe is overall better, I have already been pre-selected in a sense to be considered for many things at Loyola and I fear giving up such a fellowship would be a mistake. I have read your blog extensively and I am planning to ask Loyola to match the offer from Wash Lee and maybe that of Northeastern.
Another large concern is place of living. I was interested in moving to a city (never lived in one) and Wash Lee is certainly not in a city. But I did undergrad at Virginia Tech and thrived as a student in that similar VA environment. I feel it isn't what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school I've received a great package from?
Is Wash Lee too good of a deal at a great school to pass up on? Is a highly competitive fellowship with connections and resources in my field of interest to good of a deal to pass up on?
Loyola:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K - $123K = $127K
Employment Score: 51% Underemployment: 30%
US News: 72 ATL: NA
Northeastern:
Non-Discounted Price: $240.5K - $139.5K = $101K
Employment Score: 62% Underemployment: 24%
US News: 82 ATL: NA
Washington & Lee:
Non-Discounted Price: $233.5K - $127.5K = $106K
Employment Score: 74.5% Underemployment: 13%
US News: 40 ATL: 25
I would appreciate your thoughts,
Thanks, Roy!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Roy,
Thanks for the question! I'm going to weigh in, but before I do so I'll make a general request for anyone else to weigh in as well about the point I'll raise, namely whether one should go to a better-regarded school or one that is lower-ranked but has a specialty program in your area of interest.
My experience is that you should typically go with the better school. The specialty programs are nice, but law firms/judges/companies/governmental organizations all seem to look for the students with the best grades from the best schools. Specialty programs are considered a bonus, but they are window dressing of sorts--employers want the best lawyers, and they assume the best lawyers come from the better schools. So for me, W+L jumps right off the page as not only well-regarded across the board, but also priced basically the same as Northeastern. And, look at the W+L job numbers when they compare to the other two schools--it's not even close. This is the better-regarded school with far better job outcomes, all at the same cost. Plus, on the personal side, I've sent several students who were friends there who loved it, so I have anecdotal experience about the school that is very positive.
As far as location, I always say that it depends on the person. But, you've already thrived in a similar VA environment (your words!) and so you know that won't be an issue. And you will have far better job options after graduating, and can then choose a city option (and, to be honest, you don't want city distractions while in law school if you've never experienced them--you should be a study hermit while in school!).
Last, my compliments to both Loyola and Northeastern here--they've made this a legit argument by doing what smaller schools need to do to compete against better ranked schools: specializing in interesting programs and creating programs that appeal to narrow but highly committed bands of users. I can't give them enough compliments here for that and it's a strategy I strongly endorse for other schools in similar positions.
Ok, so I think I've stated my position here pretty clearly: aside from all the attractions and specialties elsewhere, I'd be all in on W+L given the job, cost, and prestige factors. However, you should seek alternate opinions. Ask some current law students and attorneys what they think about specialty programs and how they should be weighed vs overall job numbers and rankings. I'll also tweet this out from my personal account (https://twitter.com/DaveKilloran) and see if anyone wants to add their thoughts. And if anyone else is reading, by all means add your thoughts if you have any!
One more point: I'm a believer that the only opinion that counts is yours. If you feel like one of the other schools is the best call for you personally, then go with your gut. Only you know what will be best for you. Grades mean everything, and if another school puts you in the best spot to produce high grades, then it might be the better choice.
Please let me know if this helps, and good luck with the decision. I'd love to know which way you decide to go so please post back along the way! Thanks!"