- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:15 pm
#43345
Below is a conversation between a student, Eliza, and PowerScore CEO, Dave Killoran, regarding an admissions question.
Eliza: "Hi, I am in a complicated situation. I have applied to, and been accepted to all 3 law schools in my home state of Minnesota - University of Minnesota, Mitchell Hamline and University of St. Thomas. MH & UST are both regional schools, where University of Minnesota is in the top 50. I was offered full tuition scholarships at both MH & UST, and 18k from University of Minnesota.
Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit - does it make sense to take the money and run?
I am fairly well connected, and would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school. Or should I gamble, and get debt?
I am also concerned about the learning environments, and the amount of connection and camaraderie at the University of Minnesota vs. a smaller regional school. Please let me know what you think!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Eliza, I'm actually from Minneapolis, which helps a bit in this case
The Minneapolis legal market is pretty tight, and while the U is ranked well above both MH and UST, both MH and UST do pretty well placing grads into the Mpls market. The U tends to have the power to place grads a bit further afield (the #23 ranking helps there), so you see a lower placement rate into Minnesota and greater placement in larger legal markets like NY, IL, and CA. You probably know that, but it's worth noting because it's part of the reason their financial offer wasn't as good as the other two.
So, we can see relative rankings but that doesn't answer your question. And I'm not sure there is a perfect answer. Some would say take the ranking, others would say take the free ride. I tend to avoid debt as much as possible, but part of this depends on your career path, the type of firm you want to practice at, etc. So let's start with job outcomes:
Minnesota: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minnesota/jobs/ -- 80.1% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 3.3% Unemployed
Mitchell Hamline: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitc ... line/jobs/ -- 61.6% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 17.5% Unemployed
St. Thomas: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stthomas/jobs/ -- 58.5% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 5.5% Unemployed
Federal circuit IP isn't normally the province of solo practitioners or very small firms, so the job placement above makes some difference. I would spend serious time researching who is doing the representation at the federal level.
Next, to your comment about you "would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school." I like that sentiment a lot, but I'm going to be a realist here: every student enters with that mindset. Law school is very different than "normal" university, both in learning required and how exams are your entire grade. One good day or bad day can make or break you, and so I always tell students not to count on being at the very top of the class. There are just no guarantees.
Next, about your connections. How good are they? Will they hire you no matter where you went to school? Because if not, then again there's no guarantee.
So, at this point you are probably thinking, "Ok then, I'm off to the U!" But then the financials kick in, and with the U costing about $230K over three years, if your aid is 18K a *year*, then you will be left with around $175K in debt. That's a lot, almost $2K a month for the next decade. And so you have to balance that kind of cost against what your career goals are. This is why I suggested you take a close look at your connections and who practices the type of law you want to enter to see if you can take the free ride route, or whether that is going to require more name-brand power. That's the part I can't tell you about because I don't have all the information that you do, but it gives you a starting point for a deeper analysis.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"
Eliza: "Hi, I am in a complicated situation. I have applied to, and been accepted to all 3 law schools in my home state of Minnesota - University of Minnesota, Mitchell Hamline and University of St. Thomas. MH & UST are both regional schools, where University of Minnesota is in the top 50. I was offered full tuition scholarships at both MH & UST, and 18k from University of Minnesota.
Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit - does it make sense to take the money and run?
I am fairly well connected, and would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school. Or should I gamble, and get debt?
I am also concerned about the learning environments, and the amount of connection and camaraderie at the University of Minnesota vs. a smaller regional school. Please let me know what you think!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Eliza, I'm actually from Minneapolis, which helps a bit in this case
The Minneapolis legal market is pretty tight, and while the U is ranked well above both MH and UST, both MH and UST do pretty well placing grads into the Mpls market. The U tends to have the power to place grads a bit further afield (the #23 ranking helps there), so you see a lower placement rate into Minnesota and greater placement in larger legal markets like NY, IL, and CA. You probably know that, but it's worth noting because it's part of the reason their financial offer wasn't as good as the other two.
So, we can see relative rankings but that doesn't answer your question. And I'm not sure there is a perfect answer. Some would say take the ranking, others would say take the free ride. I tend to avoid debt as much as possible, but part of this depends on your career path, the type of firm you want to practice at, etc. So let's start with job outcomes:
Minnesota: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/minnesota/jobs/ -- 80.1% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 3.3% Unemployed
Mitchell Hamline: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/mitc ... line/jobs/ -- 61.6% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 17.5% Unemployed
St. Thomas: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/stthomas/jobs/ -- 58.5% in Bar Passage Required jobs / 5.5% Unemployed
Federal circuit IP isn't normally the province of solo practitioners or very small firms, so the job placement above makes some difference. I would spend serious time researching who is doing the representation at the federal level.
Next, to your comment about you "would bust my butt to be in the top 5 at a regional school." I like that sentiment a lot, but I'm going to be a realist here: every student enters with that mindset. Law school is very different than "normal" university, both in learning required and how exams are your entire grade. One good day or bad day can make or break you, and so I always tell students not to count on being at the very top of the class. There are just no guarantees.
Next, about your connections. How good are they? Will they hire you no matter where you went to school? Because if not, then again there's no guarantee.
So, at this point you are probably thinking, "Ok then, I'm off to the U!" But then the financials kick in, and with the U costing about $230K over three years, if your aid is 18K a *year*, then you will be left with around $175K in debt. That's a lot, almost $2K a month for the next decade. And so you have to balance that kind of cost against what your career goals are. This is why I suggested you take a close look at your connections and who practices the type of law you want to enter to see if you can take the free ride route, or whether that is going to require more name-brand power. That's the part I can't tell you about because I don't have all the information that you do, but it gives you a starting point for a deeper analysis.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!"