- PowerScore Staff
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- Fri Apr 03, 2020 9:45 am
#74625
A student reached out to PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran for some advice on choosing a law school. Below is a transcript of the student's question and Dave's response.
Student: "Dave,
First of all, I want to thank you for creating this forum. Your blog has been such a great source of help to me. So, I’m an international student and I am faced with a situation similar to Taylor’s (the Mormon guy you helped in 2017). I, too have been accepted to a few law schools with my decision right now really between Cornell and BYU. Below are the specifics I have for each school:
Cornell
1/3 Tuition scholarship for 3 years (with the possibility to slightly increase) + $32,000 total cost of living = approx. $168,000 total debt
Employment/Employment after 10 months: 91.1/93.1
USNews Rank: 13
Location: Ithaca, New York
BYU
Full-ride tuition plus all program frees scholarship for all three years. $32,000 total cost of living = approx. $32,000 total debt ( I was potentially offered one year stipend for housing).
Employment at graduation/Employment after 10 months: 43.8/73.1
USNews Rank: 37
Location: Provo, Utah
I hope to do big law for a couple of years before returning back to my country. So, I definitely want to save as much money as possible. I am a city person so I would love to live in a big city or close to a big city. Provo and Ithaca are pretty comparable so neither is really a “big city.” However, I did do my undergrad at BYU so, I am already tired of Provo and could really use a change of scenery and a different school experience. I would definitely not want to stay in Utah when I graduate, but I also could potentially live in Utah for free while I attend law school, if I attend BYU. I am very familiar with the BYU law school. I know a ton of the current 1Ls and 2Ls at BYU and the Dean of admissions loves me and have told me multiple times that they want me to attend BYU. Comparatively, I have a friend at Cornell, he is a 2L. I know one of the admission officers. She fell in love with my application and have since kept contact with me. Earlier, when I said I could potentially get a better scholarship offer, I was banking on a conversation I had with her. I attended a law class at Cornell with other admitted students and I loved the professor and my classmates. I have only met a few people in my class at BYU and they seem really nice, but most of them are married (not sure why I used a “but”). I know the Provo/Utah Culture pretty well. I’m Mormon myself so I feel like I have it figured out. As for Cornell, I don’t know what to expect culture-wise and I have also never been to Ithaca.
So far, I have only felt good about the thought of attending Cornell but I am terrified of the debt. Conversely, I have only felt good about taking the full-ride from BYU but terrified of spending another 3 years in Provo. I would love to hear your thoughts on what I should do.
Thank you so much Dave!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi,
Thanks for the message and the kind words! It’s funny you reference my reply to Taylor, because much of that applies to your situation, although with some differences. So let’s recap
Everything I said before about BYU — strong alumni network, one of the best deals in legal education — still applies here. What’s changed on the other side is the slightly lower name brand of Cornell (vs UVA) and the lower debt (now $168K or so), as well as your desire to perhaps try some place other than Provo for the next three years!
So, I see it hinging on a few things:
1. Jobs
You mentioned biglaw, and Cornell shows its dominance here:
Power employment rating = Clerkships (all kinds) + Large Firm Employment (251+)
BYU: 13.0% + 13.0% = 26.0%
Cornell: 64.8% + ~9.5% = 74.3%
In other words, 75% of the class at Cornell is going on to a power job whereas at BYU that figure is about 25%. That’s a significant difference that can’t be overlooked.
2. Debt
This is a legitimate concern and you are right to look at this. The real figure here is the difference between the two schools, which is $136K. So, you’d be paying $136K for those improved outcomes. Is it worth it? It might be. This is one area where although your extra debt looks similar to Taylor’s, in that case it was part of an overall debt load of $231K, which isn’t small. $168K isn’t small either, but it’s certainly more manageable.
3. Location
I’ll quote your words back to you: “I am already tired of Provo and could really use a change of scenery and a different school experience. I would definitely not want to stay in Utah when I graduate…” Those are strong words, and as I always say, one of the biggest factors in any choice is to choose the option where you think you will be happiest since that typically translates into better performance. It seems you are struggling with the idea that you want to leave but that you have so many friends and connections in BYU that it’s tough to leave (and maybe you feel as if you’d be disappointing people there). All I can tell you: go where you’ll be happy and look out for what’s best for you
I can also point one other relevant fact: BYU places about half of their grads into jobs in…Utah. So, you’d be going to a school where your primary outcomes are very likely Utah ones (not certain, but it tilts that way).
Overall, #1 and #3 skew heavily towards Cornell, and #2 favors BYU. As I told Taylor: “Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA Cornell offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn’t go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?”
My overall lean here would be towards Cornell, in large part because your preferred job outcome vs the debt isn’t onerous and also that you want out of Provo. But this is your decision and you have to be happy with what you choose. No wrong choices here though, fortunately!
I hope that helps and please let me know what you decide to do!"
Student: "Dave,
First of all, I want to thank you for creating this forum. Your blog has been such a great source of help to me. So, I’m an international student and I am faced with a situation similar to Taylor’s (the Mormon guy you helped in 2017). I, too have been accepted to a few law schools with my decision right now really between Cornell and BYU. Below are the specifics I have for each school:
Cornell
1/3 Tuition scholarship for 3 years (with the possibility to slightly increase) + $32,000 total cost of living = approx. $168,000 total debt
Employment/Employment after 10 months: 91.1/93.1
USNews Rank: 13
Location: Ithaca, New York
BYU
Full-ride tuition plus all program frees scholarship for all three years. $32,000 total cost of living = approx. $32,000 total debt ( I was potentially offered one year stipend for housing).
Employment at graduation/Employment after 10 months: 43.8/73.1
USNews Rank: 37
Location: Provo, Utah
I hope to do big law for a couple of years before returning back to my country. So, I definitely want to save as much money as possible. I am a city person so I would love to live in a big city or close to a big city. Provo and Ithaca are pretty comparable so neither is really a “big city.” However, I did do my undergrad at BYU so, I am already tired of Provo and could really use a change of scenery and a different school experience. I would definitely not want to stay in Utah when I graduate, but I also could potentially live in Utah for free while I attend law school, if I attend BYU. I am very familiar with the BYU law school. I know a ton of the current 1Ls and 2Ls at BYU and the Dean of admissions loves me and have told me multiple times that they want me to attend BYU. Comparatively, I have a friend at Cornell, he is a 2L. I know one of the admission officers. She fell in love with my application and have since kept contact with me. Earlier, when I said I could potentially get a better scholarship offer, I was banking on a conversation I had with her. I attended a law class at Cornell with other admitted students and I loved the professor and my classmates. I have only met a few people in my class at BYU and they seem really nice, but most of them are married (not sure why I used a “but”). I know the Provo/Utah Culture pretty well. I’m Mormon myself so I feel like I have it figured out. As for Cornell, I don’t know what to expect culture-wise and I have also never been to Ithaca.
So far, I have only felt good about the thought of attending Cornell but I am terrified of the debt. Conversely, I have only felt good about taking the full-ride from BYU but terrified of spending another 3 years in Provo. I would love to hear your thoughts on what I should do.
Thank you so much Dave!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi,
Thanks for the message and the kind words! It’s funny you reference my reply to Taylor, because much of that applies to your situation, although with some differences. So let’s recap
Everything I said before about BYU — strong alumni network, one of the best deals in legal education — still applies here. What’s changed on the other side is the slightly lower name brand of Cornell (vs UVA) and the lower debt (now $168K or so), as well as your desire to perhaps try some place other than Provo for the next three years!
So, I see it hinging on a few things:
1. Jobs
You mentioned biglaw, and Cornell shows its dominance here:
Power employment rating = Clerkships (all kinds) + Large Firm Employment (251+)
BYU: 13.0% + 13.0% = 26.0%
Cornell: 64.8% + ~9.5% = 74.3%
In other words, 75% of the class at Cornell is going on to a power job whereas at BYU that figure is about 25%. That’s a significant difference that can’t be overlooked.
2. Debt
This is a legitimate concern and you are right to look at this. The real figure here is the difference between the two schools, which is $136K. So, you’d be paying $136K for those improved outcomes. Is it worth it? It might be. This is one area where although your extra debt looks similar to Taylor’s, in that case it was part of an overall debt load of $231K, which isn’t small. $168K isn’t small either, but it’s certainly more manageable.
3. Location
I’ll quote your words back to you: “I am already tired of Provo and could really use a change of scenery and a different school experience. I would definitely not want to stay in Utah when I graduate…” Those are strong words, and as I always say, one of the biggest factors in any choice is to choose the option where you think you will be happiest since that typically translates into better performance. It seems you are struggling with the idea that you want to leave but that you have so many friends and connections in BYU that it’s tough to leave (and maybe you feel as if you’d be disappointing people there). All I can tell you: go where you’ll be happy and look out for what’s best for you
I can also point one other relevant fact: BYU places about half of their grads into jobs in…Utah. So, you’d be going to a school where your primary outcomes are very likely Utah ones (not certain, but it tilts that way).
Overall, #1 and #3 skew heavily towards Cornell, and #2 favors BYU. As I told Taylor: “Just as an aside, a decision like this has elements of game theory behind it, but one way to look at this is that UVA Cornell offers a wider array of outcomes, including both good and bad results. The potential job outcomes are seemingly better on the top end, but if things didn’t go well the debt load could result in some very negative results. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. You could consider this the choice of locking in a more reliable set of middle-range outcomes (and again, this is generalizing; you could go to BYU and have a result that is the best possible one for you) vs a more risk-taking approach that increases the possibilities at both ends. If it helps, you should consider what type of person and risk-taker you are—does one of those two characterizations immediately feel more comfortable to you?”
My overall lean here would be towards Cornell, in large part because your preferred job outcome vs the debt isn’t onerous and also that you want out of Provo. But this is your decision and you have to be happy with what you choose. No wrong choices here though, fortunately!
I hope that helps and please let me know what you decide to do!"
