- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri May 15, 2020 9:23 am
#75476
Below is a conversation between a student named Dave, and PowerScore CEO (also named Dave! 
) regarding Dave's (the student) law school choice.
Dave (student): "Hi,
I have a choice between PSU/Dickinson and William and Mary. I’ll give details below, but my estimated annual cost of attendance will vary based on the fact that I am married and living arrangements will differ for each school. In each case, my wife and I will live separately (visiting on weekends) in my 1L year and we will be living together for the second and third years, when she would take on most of the non-tuition and fees COA.
PSU/Dickinson (ranked 62):
Full ride plus $5K 1L Dean’s Fellowship
Annual Cost of Attendance: $9,000 to $10,000 (1L), $5,000 (2L and 3L)
TOTAL cost of attendance = $20,000
Pros:
Largest scholarship, close to home (2 hours), provides advantage in PA, very friendly people, externships in state government, strong in state clerkships, chance to study in Philly and DC.
Cons:
Lower ranking than W&M, academic program less interesting, less interesting town and surrounding area, GPA curve 3.0 , no Order of the Coif to which to aspire
William and Mary (ranked 31)
About 50% tuition scholarship
Annual Cost of attendance: $30,000 to $36,000 (1L), $19,000 (2L and 3L) with in-state residency
TOTAL cost of attendance = $74,000
Pros:
Higher rank, focus on constitutional law, interesting academic program, nationally known, ranks in top 50 in any area of law that interests me, the historical interest and beauty of campus and Williamsburg, better law library, GPA curve 3.30, stronger in DC, higher rate of federal clerkships, Order of the Coif , train station close
Cons:
Higher cost, farther from home (about 5-6 hours), not as strong in PA
Career Goals:
I can see myself in a variety of positions, from working in a firm or government to becoming a judge, Congressional staffer, legislator, or even law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14). Right out of law school, the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship. My geographic preference is either Philly or DC, though I could imagine working in NJ, the NYC area, or possibly the Boston area, as well. My favorite areas of law (at least at this point) are constitutional law, healthcare law, IP law (including patent), elder law, animal law, national security law, space law, family law, trusts and estates. I am sure I will narrow this down in law school."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Dave,
Thanks for the message! You have the classic choice here, but the big bonus is that your costs are under $75K, which makes the final decisions easier no matter which way you decide
Let’s first start with a comment you made at the end: “law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14).” This is a common misconception, as a glance at the faculty of almost any law school will tell you. Yes, if you want to be a prof at HYS, then being outside the T14 makes it harder, and in general T14 status is a big help. But take a look at William & Mary, for example. I pulled up their faculty roster and clicked on the first eight professors, alphabetically. Here are their JD schools:
Illinois
American U
Stanford
Yale
Yale
Virginia
UNC
Virginia
So, 5/8 are T14, 3/8 aren’t. A limited sample to be sure, but surely it counters the “no chance” myth that has been perpetuated throughout the years That said, prestige and rankings do matter in the law field, and generally the higher-ranked school you attend, the better your chances of landing a job like that.
Next, you said that, “the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship.” As I’m sure you noticed, W&M in 2018 placed 9.1% of grads into a fed clerking job whereas Penn State placed 4.8%. Since W&M is about three times larger than PSU-D, that means the actual numbers were about 17 vs 3, but notice that means that W&M grads aren’t a rarity in federal clerkships whereas PSU grads somewhat are–they don’t have the same track record because the school is relatively new. That isn’t the end of the world (witness UC Irvine’s rise) but it means that PSU simply doesn’t have the same name brand recognition yet (in the future I believe they will–PSU admin seems quite focused and intent on raising their profile). But, as you note, Dickinson places a lot of grads into state clerkships.
Moving on, given the variety of interests you have both academically and career-wise, there’s some value in looking at the bigger name school, and the LST numbers bear that out. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:
Dickinson: 4.8% + 3.2% = 8.0%
William & Mary: 9.1% + 19.7% = 28.8%
That shows that W&M places into true power positions at a rate about 3.5 times greater than Dickinson.
So, the question is whether the increased chances at a clerkship, greater job options, and eventual professorship are worth the extra money and distance. I’d say they probably are, BUT, I can’t see into how thing play out on the family side. Maybe staying closer to home works out much more easily for you on the home front and that helps you perform better. Or perhaps being in new surroundings in a place you like is the key to an improved performance. This is the real question: which school makes you feel more at home and comfortable? Because there’s no bad choice here and either school could see you off to a successful career. If it’s equal in your opinion, go with the lower debt every time.
So, not a definitive answer but I hope it helped a bit. Please let me know.
Thanks!"
Dave (student): "Hi, Dave (?),
Wow! Thank you for such a good and insightful answer…that helps me out a great deal. I also greatly appreciate the timeliness and kindness of your reply. When I posted a similar question on”Top Law Schools” I got a rude response that said neither school would get me what I wanted.
I feel that the one factor that has held me back from W&M is distance, even more than money. However, your clear-minded analysis really focused me on why I wanted to go to law school in the first place, and W&M offers those things. Also, my wife and I really like Williamsburg and went there as our pre-wedding trip (and then had a colonial-themed wedding). I was afraid I might be just indulging myself by going there, but your numbers showed me that there is real value for my future in that decision.
Finally, thank you for all you do…you obviously care about the welfare of students!
Take care,
Dave"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Dave,
Yeah, I’m a Dave too, lol! Thanks so much for the kind reply–I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it! I can completely understand your concerns over the distance but it does sound like it’s a place where you can do well and that can help you in the future. And it sounds like both you and your wife will enjoy living there in your 2L and 3L years, which is cool since you both know a bit about the area already.
I wish you the best of success!"
) regarding Dave's (the student) law school choice. Dave (student): "Hi,
I have a choice between PSU/Dickinson and William and Mary. I’ll give details below, but my estimated annual cost of attendance will vary based on the fact that I am married and living arrangements will differ for each school. In each case, my wife and I will live separately (visiting on weekends) in my 1L year and we will be living together for the second and third years, when she would take on most of the non-tuition and fees COA.
PSU/Dickinson (ranked 62):
Full ride plus $5K 1L Dean’s Fellowship
Annual Cost of Attendance: $9,000 to $10,000 (1L), $5,000 (2L and 3L)
TOTAL cost of attendance = $20,000
Pros:
Largest scholarship, close to home (2 hours), provides advantage in PA, very friendly people, externships in state government, strong in state clerkships, chance to study in Philly and DC.
Cons:
Lower ranking than W&M, academic program less interesting, less interesting town and surrounding area, GPA curve 3.0 , no Order of the Coif to which to aspire
William and Mary (ranked 31)
About 50% tuition scholarship
Annual Cost of attendance: $30,000 to $36,000 (1L), $19,000 (2L and 3L) with in-state residency
TOTAL cost of attendance = $74,000
Pros:
Higher rank, focus on constitutional law, interesting academic program, nationally known, ranks in top 50 in any area of law that interests me, the historical interest and beauty of campus and Williamsburg, better law library, GPA curve 3.30, stronger in DC, higher rate of federal clerkships, Order of the Coif , train station close
Cons:
Higher cost, farther from home (about 5-6 hours), not as strong in PA
Career Goals:
I can see myself in a variety of positions, from working in a firm or government to becoming a judge, Congressional staffer, legislator, or even law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14). Right out of law school, the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship. My geographic preference is either Philly or DC, though I could imagine working in NJ, the NYC area, or possibly the Boston area, as well. My favorite areas of law (at least at this point) are constitutional law, healthcare law, IP law (including patent), elder law, animal law, national security law, space law, family law, trusts and estates. I am sure I will narrow this down in law school."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Dave,
Thanks for the message! You have the classic choice here, but the big bonus is that your costs are under $75K, which makes the final decisions easier no matter which way you decide
Let’s first start with a comment you made at the end: “law prof (though I have been told I have no shot at the latter outside the T14).” This is a common misconception, as a glance at the faculty of almost any law school will tell you. Yes, if you want to be a prof at HYS, then being outside the T14 makes it harder, and in general T14 status is a big help. But take a look at William & Mary, for example. I pulled up their faculty roster and clicked on the first eight professors, alphabetically. Here are their JD schools:
Illinois
American U
Stanford
Yale
Yale
Virginia
UNC
Virginia
So, 5/8 are T14, 3/8 aren’t. A limited sample to be sure, but surely it counters the “no chance” myth that has been perpetuated throughout the years
That said, prestige and rankings do matter in the law field, and generally the higher-ranked school you attend, the better your chances of landing a job like that.Next, you said that, “the job that appeals most top me is a federal clerkship.” As I’m sure you noticed, W&M in 2018 placed 9.1% of grads into a fed clerking job whereas Penn State placed 4.8%. Since W&M is about three times larger than PSU-D, that means the actual numbers were about 17 vs 3, but notice that means that W&M grads aren’t a rarity in federal clerkships whereas PSU grads somewhat are–they don’t have the same track record because the school is relatively new. That isn’t the end of the world (witness UC Irvine’s rise) but it means that PSU simply doesn’t have the same name brand recognition yet (in the future I believe they will–PSU admin seems quite focused and intent on raising their profile). But, as you note, Dickinson places a lot of grads into state clerkships.
Moving on, given the variety of interests you have both academically and career-wise, there’s some value in looking at the bigger name school, and the LST numbers bear that out. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:
Dickinson: 4.8% + 3.2% = 8.0%
William & Mary: 9.1% + 19.7% = 28.8%
That shows that W&M places into true power positions at a rate about 3.5 times greater than Dickinson.
So, the question is whether the increased chances at a clerkship, greater job options, and eventual professorship are worth the extra money and distance. I’d say they probably are, BUT, I can’t see into how thing play out on the family side. Maybe staying closer to home works out much more easily for you on the home front and that helps you perform better. Or perhaps being in new surroundings in a place you like is the key to an improved performance. This is the real question: which school makes you feel more at home and comfortable? Because there’s no bad choice here and either school could see you off to a successful career. If it’s equal in your opinion, go with the lower debt every time.
So, not a definitive answer but I hope it helped a bit. Please let me know.
Thanks!"
Dave (student): "Hi, Dave (?),
Wow! Thank you for such a good and insightful answer…that helps me out a great deal. I also greatly appreciate the timeliness and kindness of your reply. When I posted a similar question on”Top Law Schools” I got a rude response that said neither school would get me what I wanted.
I feel that the one factor that has held me back from W&M is distance, even more than money. However, your clear-minded analysis really focused me on why I wanted to go to law school in the first place, and W&M offers those things. Also, my wife and I really like Williamsburg and went there as our pre-wedding trip (and then had a colonial-themed wedding). I was afraid I might be just indulging myself by going there, but your numbers showed me that there is real value for my future in that decision.
Finally, thank you for all you do…you obviously care about the welfare of students!
Take care,
Dave"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Dave,
Yeah, I’m a Dave too, lol! Thanks so much for the kind reply–I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it! I can completely understand your concerns over the distance but it does sound like it’s a place where you can do well and that can help you in the future. And it sounds like both you and your wife will enjoy living there in your 2L and 3L years, which is cool since you both know a bit about the area already.
I wish you the best of success!"