- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri May 15, 2020 9:51 am
#75477
Below is a conversation between a student and PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran regarding the student's law school choice.
Jerry: "Hi Dave,
I apologize in advance for the length of this post and thank you for taking the time to respond. I am caught in the middle of a rather complex decision.
I have had a very interesting application cycle to say the least. To preface this comment I have done a significant amount of research and self-reflection and I am still coming up short on what exactly I should do. I have reached out to lawyers, law students, scoured the web, reached out to career counselors, spoken with family/friends, etc., and I am still having such a hard time making a final decision. I have read through all of your previous comments to people to try to glean any similarities with my situation and you will likely be just as unsure what to do as I am.
A bit of background. I am an untraditional student in the sense that I come from a performing arts/liberal arts background. I am originally from Texas. UT Austin undergrad. Moved out to LA to pursue acting/try something new. Started a career in entertainment management, not fulfilling enough. Still in LA and been here for 3 years. I am now returning back to my desire to go to law school (met with pre-law advising at least a dozen times in undergrad but was never ready to make the commitment, now I am.)
As for career goals, I am not set on any particular area of law. I am not “BigLaw or Bust”, however, having that as a potential option would be better than not having it as an option at all. My heart is in public interest (strong focus on LGBTQ+ advocacy), but I ultimately just want a sustaining, challenging and fulfilling career. I don’t need to make top dollar, but being financially comfortable is always the goal. Given my fluidity/openness in career goals, I want to have the most options/opportunities I can get out the law school I choose.
Geographically speaking, I have loved living in LA these last 3 years. I would not mind spending another 3 years here for law school. However, my family is back in Texas. My goal is to eventually return to Texas, more specifically Austin, Texas. Lower cost of living + no state income taxes + large legal market + family/friends = returning to Texas is inevitable for me.
Now for the options:
– The University of Houston Law Center: completely debt free (including tuition, fees, books, COL)
PROS: a free J.D. means my earnings are my own from the moment I start working, strong support system in Houston (best friend lives there) and a quick 4 hour road trip to my family in DFW, low COL means my money goes further, huge city = huge legal market
CONS: currently ranked #56, about 22% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, would need to maintain top 20% status to secure a wider range of opportunities (more pressure to not be a median student), have heard “at graduation” employment is tough if you aren’t in the top half of the class, would need to be comfortable starting career in Houston and remaining until a lateral jump to Austin could be made
– UCLA School of Law: could pull it off in roughly $80-$85K in principal loan debt
PROS: would not have to immediately relocate in the short term, amazing LRAP program, guaranteed summer stipends for public interest work, over 50% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, stellar employment record, access to the 2nd largest legal market in the country, most prestigious law school I got into
CONS: taking on debt, prolonging the move to Texas and worried about UCLA’s placement there, larger class sizes and steeper competition
I am unfortunately waitlisted to Texas Law or else that would have been the perfect combination of all of my desires. I have sent in several heartfelt and convincing LOCIs to no avail as of yet.
If you’ve made it this far, you’re a hero. Again, I appreciate any guidance/insight as to what I should do in this situation or if there may be things I am not considering in my above thought process. I recognize that I am thankful to have any choices at all, but I’m sure you can appreciate how extremely stressful it is to have to make a decision that will more or less chart the course for the rest of my career."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the message! I did indeed get through all of it
First, thanks very much for the complete layout of information–that is quite helpful.
Second, I don’t think there is a “bad” choice here, which is good news. Either route can easily work for your purposes, and if you went the UCLA path the debt isn’t so onerous as to cripple your options.
Next, as you noted, UCLA has about a double placement rate compared to Houston for the top jobs. The reason we track that is that there is a trickle down effect, so that extra 25% or so is what you’d be paying for, and then presumably the second -tier jobs are improved, etc. Is that worth it, and would it play in Texas? It’s certainly an attractive bargain, and the nice thing about UCLA is that everyone in the country has heard of it and knows it to be a good school (it’s similar to how UT play reasonably well in other markets–everyone has heard of it). Texas firms won’t know UCLA grads as well as they do UH grads, but that can actually be a benefit when you come in from a higher-ranked school–uniqueness is desirable.
So yeah, I feel the difficulty of this choice, and there’s no real way for me to say go for the bigger name vs the zero debt. You seem to like both locations, and so I’d likely focus your decision on which school you think you can do best at over the next three years (and, don’t worry about size/competition at UCLA; no one walks into law school suddenly great at it. That’s almost a crapshoot in some respect).
Last, don’t over stress here. These are both excellent options, and you are looking at which one is better than the other, not which one is worse. Debt free is fabulous, but the debt at UCLA is also not that big and the jobs outcomes are generally better. Those are both winning options to me
I hope that helps somewhat! And please let me know what you decide"
Jerry: "Hi Dave,
I very much appreciate your thoughtful response!
It’s an interesting point you bring up about which program I might succeed more in over the next 3 years. I’ve given this some thought too and I’ve considered what “stressors” I can avoid in either situation.
I moved to LA in my young 20s. The community I have built here is largely built around social activities (i.e. going out, going on trips to Palm Springs/Vegas, etc.) While I know I am an amazing student and can easily say “no” to things, I feel the temptation and room for distraction is greater in LA given what I have grown accustomed to during my time living here. Another point I consider is the fact that I live with roommates in LA (3 to be exact). For what I spend to live here, I could easily live by myself in a very nice 1 bedroom or studio in Houston, TX (it may even be cheaper). If my fall semester, due to COVID19, is largely going to be virtual, I think about the huge benefit of having my own living and work space will be, not to mention the myriad of benefits of just living alone during law school. In addition, I think about how physically and mentally taxing law school is. Some days it may make all the difference to be able to just drive home for a nice home cooked meal to escape the stresses of 1L. In fact, UHLC does not have Friday classes during your 1L from what I understand and could easily leave for DFW after a busy week. Not to mention the added benefit of literally having my best friend since middle school down the road in Houston.
However, on the flip side, UCLA has a unique one and half week long orientation and 1L “bootcamp” to prepare students with the necessary 1L tips, tricks and strategies to perform well in class and on exams before classes even begin. I absolutely love that. I think about being able to escape to the beach to clear my head or take a hike to release stress. What is unfortunate is that one of the appeals of UCLA is the gorgeous campus. With most classes likely being virtual, I may not even get to enjoy that beauty of the UCLA campus my first semester.
This is all probably way more info than you asked for but it almost feels cathartic to type this out and think through it with you.
I will surely report back what I ultimately decide.
Thanks again!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jerry,
That’s a good way to think of it. I lived in LA for years, not too far from UCLA at times, so I know exactly the type of environment and distractions that exist there. Then again, sometimes it can keep you sane to have other people around as distractions on occasion
One point I will make: that 1L bootcamp at UCLA shouldn’t be a decider. Similar programs exist in the “wild” and replicate that type of experience. For example, I’m good friends with the folks at LawPreview, and I know their program is high-quality and run by people who care.
Another aside: this has been a very slow cycle for waitlists at the T14, but we may see some heavy movement this summer. I wonder what happens if UT comes calling for you
Keep talking this through and I suspect one of the options will begin appear a nose ahead of the other.
Thanks!"
Jerry: "Hi Dave,
You’re absolutely right and if UT came to me tomorrow and offered me a spot, I wouldn’t hesitate to accept, which has very transparently been expressed to them.
I guess I would have to figure out at what point does it become to late for them to offer me acceptance and me reasonably make the switch. For instance, if UHLC is the way I go, I have to start making preparations to move and secure an apartment lease here in the not too distant future. If UCLA is the way I go, at what point is it too late to adequately and responsibly move back to Austin.
I have a call set today with a UCLA career counselor to pick her brain about the program and get her insight into some of my fears. Hoping that goes well!
Thank you for your guidance!"
Jerry: "Hi Dave,
I apologize in advance for the length of this post and thank you for taking the time to respond. I am caught in the middle of a rather complex decision.
I have had a very interesting application cycle to say the least. To preface this comment I have done a significant amount of research and self-reflection and I am still coming up short on what exactly I should do. I have reached out to lawyers, law students, scoured the web, reached out to career counselors, spoken with family/friends, etc., and I am still having such a hard time making a final decision. I have read through all of your previous comments to people to try to glean any similarities with my situation and you will likely be just as unsure what to do as I am.
A bit of background. I am an untraditional student in the sense that I come from a performing arts/liberal arts background. I am originally from Texas. UT Austin undergrad. Moved out to LA to pursue acting/try something new. Started a career in entertainment management, not fulfilling enough. Still in LA and been here for 3 years. I am now returning back to my desire to go to law school (met with pre-law advising at least a dozen times in undergrad but was never ready to make the commitment, now I am.)
As for career goals, I am not set on any particular area of law. I am not “BigLaw or Bust”, however, having that as a potential option would be better than not having it as an option at all. My heart is in public interest (strong focus on LGBTQ+ advocacy), but I ultimately just want a sustaining, challenging and fulfilling career. I don’t need to make top dollar, but being financially comfortable is always the goal. Given my fluidity/openness in career goals, I want to have the most options/opportunities I can get out the law school I choose.
Geographically speaking, I have loved living in LA these last 3 years. I would not mind spending another 3 years here for law school. However, my family is back in Texas. My goal is to eventually return to Texas, more specifically Austin, Texas. Lower cost of living + no state income taxes + large legal market + family/friends = returning to Texas is inevitable for me.
Now for the options:
– The University of Houston Law Center: completely debt free (including tuition, fees, books, COL)
PROS: a free J.D. means my earnings are my own from the moment I start working, strong support system in Houston (best friend lives there) and a quick 4 hour road trip to my family in DFW, low COL means my money goes further, huge city = huge legal market
CONS: currently ranked #56, about 22% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, would need to maintain top 20% status to secure a wider range of opportunities (more pressure to not be a median student), have heard “at graduation” employment is tough if you aren’t in the top half of the class, would need to be comfortable starting career in Houston and remaining until a lateral jump to Austin could be made
– UCLA School of Law: could pull it off in roughly $80-$85K in principal loan debt
PROS: would not have to immediately relocate in the short term, amazing LRAP program, guaranteed summer stipends for public interest work, over 50% in total BigLaw/Fed Clerkship placement, stellar employment record, access to the 2nd largest legal market in the country, most prestigious law school I got into
CONS: taking on debt, prolonging the move to Texas and worried about UCLA’s placement there, larger class sizes and steeper competition
I am unfortunately waitlisted to Texas Law or else that would have been the perfect combination of all of my desires. I have sent in several heartfelt and convincing LOCIs to no avail as of yet.
If you’ve made it this far, you’re a hero. Again, I appreciate any guidance/insight as to what I should do in this situation or if there may be things I am not considering in my above thought process. I recognize that I am thankful to have any choices at all, but I’m sure you can appreciate how extremely stressful it is to have to make a decision that will more or less chart the course for the rest of my career."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the message! I did indeed get through all of it
First, thanks very much for the complete layout of information–that is quite helpful.
Second, I don’t think there is a “bad” choice here, which is good news. Either route can easily work for your purposes, and if you went the UCLA path the debt isn’t so onerous as to cripple your options.
Next, as you noted, UCLA has about a double placement rate compared to Houston for the top jobs. The reason we track that is that there is a trickle down effect, so that extra 25% or so is what you’d be paying for, and then presumably the second -tier jobs are improved, etc. Is that worth it, and would it play in Texas? It’s certainly an attractive bargain, and the nice thing about UCLA is that everyone in the country has heard of it and knows it to be a good school (it’s similar to how UT play reasonably well in other markets–everyone has heard of it). Texas firms won’t know UCLA grads as well as they do UH grads, but that can actually be a benefit when you come in from a higher-ranked school–uniqueness is desirable.
So yeah, I feel the difficulty of this choice, and there’s no real way for me to say go for the bigger name vs the zero debt. You seem to like both locations, and so I’d likely focus your decision on which school you think you can do best at over the next three years (and, don’t worry about size/competition at UCLA; no one walks into law school suddenly great at it. That’s almost a crapshoot in some respect).
Last, don’t over stress here. These are both excellent options, and you are looking at which one is better than the other, not which one is worse. Debt free is fabulous, but the debt at UCLA is also not that big and the jobs outcomes are generally better. Those are both winning options to me
I hope that helps somewhat! And please let me know what you decide
"Jerry: "Hi Dave,
I very much appreciate your thoughtful response!
It’s an interesting point you bring up about which program I might succeed more in over the next 3 years. I’ve given this some thought too and I’ve considered what “stressors” I can avoid in either situation.
I moved to LA in my young 20s. The community I have built here is largely built around social activities (i.e. going out, going on trips to Palm Springs/Vegas, etc.) While I know I am an amazing student and can easily say “no” to things, I feel the temptation and room for distraction is greater in LA given what I have grown accustomed to during my time living here. Another point I consider is the fact that I live with roommates in LA (3 to be exact). For what I spend to live here, I could easily live by myself in a very nice 1 bedroom or studio in Houston, TX (it may even be cheaper). If my fall semester, due to COVID19, is largely going to be virtual, I think about the huge benefit of having my own living and work space will be, not to mention the myriad of benefits of just living alone during law school. In addition, I think about how physically and mentally taxing law school is. Some days it may make all the difference to be able to just drive home for a nice home cooked meal to escape the stresses of 1L. In fact, UHLC does not have Friday classes during your 1L from what I understand and could easily leave for DFW after a busy week. Not to mention the added benefit of literally having my best friend since middle school down the road in Houston.
However, on the flip side, UCLA has a unique one and half week long orientation and 1L “bootcamp” to prepare students with the necessary 1L tips, tricks and strategies to perform well in class and on exams before classes even begin. I absolutely love that. I think about being able to escape to the beach to clear my head or take a hike to release stress. What is unfortunate is that one of the appeals of UCLA is the gorgeous campus. With most classes likely being virtual, I may not even get to enjoy that beauty of the UCLA campus my first semester.
This is all probably way more info than you asked for but it almost feels cathartic to type this out and think through it with you.
I will surely report back what I ultimately decide.
Thanks again!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jerry,
That’s a good way to think of it. I lived in LA for years, not too far from UCLA at times, so I know exactly the type of environment and distractions that exist there. Then again, sometimes it can keep you sane to have other people around as distractions on occasion
One point I will make: that 1L bootcamp at UCLA shouldn’t be a decider. Similar programs exist in the “wild” and replicate that type of experience. For example, I’m good friends with the folks at LawPreview, and I know their program is high-quality and run by people who care.
Another aside: this has been a very slow cycle for waitlists at the T14, but we may see some heavy movement this summer. I wonder what happens if UT comes calling for you
Keep talking this through and I suspect one of the options will begin appear a nose ahead of the other.
Thanks!"
Jerry: "Hi Dave,
You’re absolutely right and if UT came to me tomorrow and offered me a spot, I wouldn’t hesitate to accept, which has very transparently been expressed to them.
I guess I would have to figure out at what point does it become to late for them to offer me acceptance and me reasonably make the switch. For instance, if UHLC is the way I go, I have to start making preparations to move and secure an apartment lease here in the not too distant future. If UCLA is the way I go, at what point is it too late to adequately and responsibly move back to Austin.
I have a call set today with a UCLA career counselor to pick her brain about the program and get her insight into some of my fears. Hoping that goes well!
Thank you for your guidance!"