Penn Law Advice

[RyanM12]

Hello,

As I have visited there and have family connections in the area, Penn Law is one of my top choices for law school. Visiting the campus for the first time in October confirmed that it is one of the top choices on my list. I am not sure if you can give school specific advice here - but if someone is a bit familiar with Penn Law Admissions, I would greatly appreciate any insights!

One of my concerns is the waitlist as the data tends to suggest that Penn Law waitlists many qualified applicants. What is the major reason behind the high waitlist rates? ( I am mostly interested in knowing so I can strategize better in case I were to get waitlisted eg, if yield protection is a possibility, I can show interest to the school)

For instance this myLSN chart shows applicants in this GPA?LSAT range getting waitlisted far more than being outright rejected. The number of WL's is high considering that for many schools it is a competitive position to be in if you have a 75% LSAT or over for a school. ( Penn's 75% was a 170)


Does "yield protection" have anything to do with this? I have anecdotally heard that one of the reasons why Penn law wait lists many applicants is because there is a chance if accepted to Penn strong applicants may choose one of Chicago, Columbia, NYU instead as for some applicants the CCN range and T6 provides better opportunities. So it becomes somewhat of a negative if a school does not have a strong yield. ( and law schools also benefit from having a lower acceptance rate as it is part of the USNWR formula)..... The data in that myLSN chart this seems to somewhat support that notion as many applicants in that chart have pretty successful acceptance chances at one of CCN.


Will a key part be writing a Why Penn essay, writing LOCI's, visiting the campus etc in order to show interest to the school? The main reason why I'm asking all this is because while I am very interested in Penn,...I also on the other hand, I do not want to apply ED as I would likely lose most if not all financial leverage and would be paying full tuition ( and along those lines, I could not see what other schools have offered me so I can make an informed decision).

Thank you very much for any information!

[Dave Killoran]

Hey Ryan,

Thanks for the questions—they are good ones! I'm going to start by providing some basic background info about the concept we are talking about, just so anyone who might read this will have some context.

This is the time of year that the phrase "yield protection" begins to enter everyone's vocabulary. For those of you not familiar with the concept, this is when a school will decline or waitlist a highly-qualified student because they expect that said applicant will not attend the school even if accepted. Why do this? Because it makes the school look more selective. Let's say you are applying to a school that is ranked somewhere around, say, #20. But, you are an exceptional applicant and it is clear you will have a legitimate chance at a top 5 school. The school sitting at #20 knows this, and realizes that even if accepted you will likely attend a different school. So instead of accepting you, they waitlist you, or even deny you. This makes their admit and matriculation numbers look better while not actually losing out on a student who would attend. Here's a crude numerical example of how it would work:

• Let's say that School X has 100 applicants, and from the LSAT/GPA in the apps alone, they would accept 50% of them. But only 25 of those 50 would attend School X. If School X accepts all 50, they only yield 25 out of 50. Not so great.
  
  Now let's say that School X decides to practice yield protection. This time, they reject the bottom 50 applicants (as they did previously), AND now they waitlist the top 25 applicants. They then accept that second quartile of 25 applicants. Most of those would choose School X, leaving their "yield" on their admits looking quite high. Any open spaces can then be filled off the waitlist.
  
  Not only does this lower yield./selectivity rate look better to impartial observers, it also benefits a school because acceptance rate is a factor in the UN News rankings. In the first case above, the acceptance rate is 50%, and in the second case it's only 25%, yet the two strategies ultimately yield about the same number of enrollees. So guess which school would have a slightly higher ranking if all other factors were equal?

You hear various theories on yield protection, anywhere from it doesn't exist to every law school practices it. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and I think some schools practice it more than others. And, let's be entirely honest: while law school is largely a numbers game, there are plenty of numerically attractive candidates who also apply with weak LORs, bad essays, or legal issues that we can't see. So, it's a big gray area, and it's made even muddier because we don't have complete data (that's no knock on myLSN/LSN—I love those sites and think they are awesome, but they only obtain data from a limited, self-selecting sample. Still incredibly helpful, but undeniably incomplete).

If you talk to law school deans about things like this, you get various responses. At the higher-ranked schools, there's often a belief that it doesn't exist (or that if it does, it's unethical). But it's easy to deny that yield protection exists or shouldn't be done if you are sitting at a school that everyone wants to attend. As you move down the line within the range of similar schools, you hear more discussion of it. And when it comes to a discussion of this within the T14, Penn is a school that I've heard mentioned as yield protecting more than others. But neither the data you present nor what I've heard are definitive evidence that it is happening. So, this is all speculative, and it's important to at least acknowledge that.

All that aside, I think it has a bit to do with what you are seeing, and I also think that "yield protection" can really encompass a lot of elements. One admissions director once told me that he frequently made notes on students who told him that his school was a backup school, and that it often negatively it influenced his thinking on them. Is that yield protection or just human nature? Probably both

The conclusion I draw that yield protection is playing some role here actually shouldn't influence what you do with Penn. It sounds to me like you have a legitimate interest in the school, and if it was a full scholarship ED school like Northwestern, you'd probably have applied ED. But they aren't, and one of the side effects of that is that they lose some extremely interested applicants because of it. What I'd do is honestly express your interest in the school, primarily through the Why Penn essay, but also through a campus visit if it's easy. If you feel like there's a high chance you'll go if accepted, say so. Doing so can only help you, and everyone (including law schools and admissions officers) likes being wanted.

That's probably a longer answer than needed, but I think the background info is useful to cover. Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!

[RyanM12]

Thank you very much! it was very helpful and covered all the bases ( so it was not too long).

I had a follow up question that I wanted to ask in terms of employment- how wide is the gap between Penn and any of Columbia, Chicago or NYU? I was wobdering because applicants often refer to the T6 schools or the law school acronym CCN ( in which Penn is just one place away in the rankings). I'm kind of confused since based off of my research Penn Law seems to do a very good job placing graduates in full-time legal positions.

Is one of the primary differences the level of access that people at Columbia or NYU have to internships and jobs in the New York market? I would imagine that New York firms do a bit more OCI's there and as a result it is easier to gain connections and internships to New York firms which are key to gaining a full time job after graduation ( although a large amount of Penn grads also work in New York). And the University of Chicago is directly located in a large market as well where it is the top rank school giving applicants Great employment opportunities.

I realize the smart thing to do is to wait and see what happens when I retake the LSAT and how my applications and financially turn out, but I was very curious as to why people often differentiate between Penn and T6/CCN.

Thanks again!

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hey Ryan,

The difference in employment prospects between Penn and the other three other schools you mentioned are minimal, and shouldn't play a major role in your decision. According to Law School Transparency, about 70% of the graduating class at Penn Law enters law practice at a large law firm, and half the class ends up in New York. Of course, you may find it easier to network in the city if you go to Columbia or NYU, but Philly is only an hour away by train. Hardly a significant geographic barrier Chicago may have the edge in federal clerkships and academic appointments, but you'll need to do exceptionally well at any of these schools to compete with Yale for that caliber of jobs.

Check out the employment data from Above The Law too:

Penn
Columbia
New York University
University of Chicago

Bottom line is - the four schools you're considering are quite different in many respects, but employment prospects isn't one of them. Once you get admitted, I'd strongly encourage you to visit each school and talk to as many students and faculty as you can. How happy you are for the next 3 years will be a much stronger predictor of your academic success and employability.

Hope this helps!