- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mar 31, 2017
- Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:46 am
#33898
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Mary, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Mary's concern about job placement after graduation:
Mary: “Hi! I am currently debating between Washington University in St. Louis, Boston College and Notre Dame. To be honest, I'm leaning away from Notre Dame, but it isn't completely off the market yet, either. Regarding scholarships, I received $35,000 per year at WashU, $26,000 per year at Boston College and $20,000 per year at Notre Dame. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. My biggest concern is job placement. I know Boston College sends about 25 percent of its graduates to big law, whereas WashU sends about 17 percent. I'm also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Any opinion on what to do would be greatly appreciated!
Dave Killoran: “Hi Mary, Thanks for the question! Ok, my first standard piece of advice is to use LST Reports to get at data that will help clarify your options: https://www.lstreports.com/national/. Here's what we know about rankings and debt (all numbers rounded to nearest thousand):
#26 Boston College: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bc/
Total Cost: $261K
Minus Scholarship: -$78K
Total Debt after grad: $183K
#20 Notre Dame: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/notredame/
Total Cost: $279K
Minus Scholarship: -$60K
Total Debt after grad: $219K
#18 WashU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/
Total Cost: $284K
Minus Scholarship: -$105K
Total Debt after grad: $179K
So, the schools are all rather closely ranked (18-20-26). As for debt, BC and WashU put you in about the same ending spot, whereas ND a good $40K more.
Let's turn to Biglaw jobs prospects (but I add clerkships in too, since those often create many very positive career options afterwards). Again, using LST Reports and looking at school employment outcomes:
I realize that Notre Dame has a big name because everyone in the US knows the school (their big time football program certainly doesn't hurt with that). But they have a lower rank, cost more, and don't do better than BC in terms of placement. So, if you aren't feeling ND, I don't see a great reason to change your mind.
So, if you're down to BC and WashU, you are actually in a GREAT spot. why? Because WashU has the better ranking AND gave you a better aid offer. It's time to use that better offer as leverage and negotiate yourself an improved BC package.
Here's what I'd do: I'd go to BC and tell them you really want to go there (assuming that's true) but that money is obviously an issue. Explain that you currently have a strong financial aid offer from WashU (their $35K per year vs $26K from BC), and take it from there to attempt to get them to improve their offer. That might then put BC over the top as your top choice.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!”
Mary: “Hi Dave, Thank you so much for your response! That definitely helps. I actually just got back from Boston today and am fairly confident that I want to be at BC, but money is of course a huge hinderance in this. Unfortunately, admissions representatives were out of the office doing recruiting activities while I was there, so I was unable to speak to anybody in person. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience?
You definitely confirmed my current thoughts--ND is likely a no, BC is probable pending scholarship negotiations and WashU is backup should scholarship negotiations end not in my favor. Hearing your thoughts on this has been a huge help; it's nice to know that I'm approaching this decision in the right way!
Thank you so much for your help. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your prompt feedback and input on this! I'll keep you updated after scholarship negotiations. Crossing my fingers it works out!”
Mary: “Hi Dave, I just wanted to follow up. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. As a generally debt adverse person, what do you recommend at this stage? Go to BC, have more debt but have potentially better job prospects, or go to WashU, have less debt but also worse job prospects in big law? Thanks again for your help!”
Dave Killoran: “Hi Mary, Thanks for the reply! I'm glad that your visit to BC went well--Boston is obviously a great town (by the way, I hear great things about St. Louis as well--I've had a number of friends spend time there who actually loved it). If this is down to BC vs WashU, the debt is so similar as to be non-determinative. It's really down to which school you like better and which one you think will help you to perform as well as possible. Your first grades will be key to your job prospects, and thus you need an environment where you will do as well as possible.
The alternative here is that if WashU was really an option, to go back to them and ask them to sweeten the offer to a number that you would fine irresistible (or, as they say in The Godfather, you want them to make you an offer that you can't refuse
. However, I only recommend that approach if you know that there is such a number and that you would indeed attend--to me, honesty in negotiation is absolutely essential, and I would only open up a negotiation with WashU if there is a chance they could change your mind. And if they can, be clear about the number that it would take to do that.
As far as BC, it's interesting to me that they stood firm. Sometimes schools will do that, other times not. It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thus, from year to year things will change, and that makes it very tough to predict how a school will act. Did you just send a letter to them about the debt? I ask because maybe it would be in your best interest to call them up and talk to the person who sent you your reply. A real live conversation can sometimes get a school to change their offer--hearing a person is so much different than reading a letter and impersonally replying to it. Perhaps you call them up, thank them so much for taking the time to reply, and let them know if they could just sweeten it a little--say $4K a year or sometime rather minor--you'd sign on the dotted line right then, you might be able to turn them over on this. And if not, what's the harm? You can still tell them you love the school and want to attend.
I get the sense you are leaning towards BC here, and given that the alternative is WashU, I think you are good there. The debt is very similar but BC has better prospects for what you seek.
Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!”
Mary: “Hi! I am currently debating between Washington University in St. Louis, Boston College and Notre Dame. To be honest, I'm leaning away from Notre Dame, but it isn't completely off the market yet, either. Regarding scholarships, I received $35,000 per year at WashU, $26,000 per year at Boston College and $20,000 per year at Notre Dame. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. My biggest concern is job placement. I know Boston College sends about 25 percent of its graduates to big law, whereas WashU sends about 17 percent. I'm also concerned that WashU has less of a national reputation than Notre Dame and am worried that it will be difficult finding a job. Any opinion on what to do would be greatly appreciated!
Dave Killoran: “Hi Mary, Thanks for the question! Ok, my first standard piece of advice is to use LST Reports to get at data that will help clarify your options: https://www.lstreports.com/national/. Here's what we know about rankings and debt (all numbers rounded to nearest thousand):
#26 Boston College: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/bc/
Total Cost: $261K
Minus Scholarship: -$78K
Total Debt after grad: $183K
#20 Notre Dame: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/notredame/
Total Cost: $279K
Minus Scholarship: -$60K
Total Debt after grad: $219K
#18 WashU: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/washu/
Total Cost: $284K
Minus Scholarship: -$105K
Total Debt after grad: $179K
So, the schools are all rather closely ranked (18-20-26). As for debt, BC and WashU put you in about the same ending spot, whereas ND a good $40K more.
Let's turn to Biglaw jobs prospects (but I add clerkships in too, since those often create many very positive career options afterwards). Again, using LST Reports and looking at school employment outcomes:
- #26 Boston College: 41.3%
- #20 Notre Dame: 40.2%
- #18 WashU: 33.8%
I realize that Notre Dame has a big name because everyone in the US knows the school (their big time football program certainly doesn't hurt with that). But they have a lower rank, cost more, and don't do better than BC in terms of placement. So, if you aren't feeling ND, I don't see a great reason to change your mind.
So, if you're down to BC and WashU, you are actually in a GREAT spot. why? Because WashU has the better ranking AND gave you a better aid offer. It's time to use that better offer as leverage and negotiate yourself an improved BC package.
Here's what I'd do: I'd go to BC and tell them you really want to go there (assuming that's true) but that money is obviously an issue. Explain that you currently have a strong financial aid offer from WashU (their $35K per year vs $26K from BC), and take it from there to attempt to get them to improve their offer. That might then put BC over the top as your top choice.
Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!”
Mary: “Hi Dave, Thank you so much for your response! That definitely helps. I actually just got back from Boston today and am fairly confident that I want to be at BC, but money is of course a huge hinderance in this. Unfortunately, admissions representatives were out of the office doing recruiting activities while I was there, so I was unable to speak to anybody in person. Instead, I drafted an email to BC and am planning on sending it tonight basically stating the above. Do scholarship negotiations usually work from your experience?
You definitely confirmed my current thoughts--ND is likely a no, BC is probable pending scholarship negotiations and WashU is backup should scholarship negotiations end not in my favor. Hearing your thoughts on this has been a huge help; it's nice to know that I'm approaching this decision in the right way!
Thank you so much for your help. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your prompt feedback and input on this! I'll keep you updated after scholarship negotiations. Crossing my fingers it works out!”
Mary: “Hi Dave, I just wanted to follow up. BC got back to me and said that their initial offer ($26,000 per year) is their best offer. As a generally debt adverse person, what do you recommend at this stage? Go to BC, have more debt but have potentially better job prospects, or go to WashU, have less debt but also worse job prospects in big law? Thanks again for your help!”
Dave Killoran: “Hi Mary, Thanks for the reply! I'm glad that your visit to BC went well--Boston is obviously a great town (by the way, I hear great things about St. Louis as well--I've had a number of friends spend time there who actually loved it). If this is down to BC vs WashU, the debt is so similar as to be non-determinative. It's really down to which school you like better and which one you think will help you to perform as well as possible. Your first grades will be key to your job prospects, and thus you need an environment where you will do as well as possible.
The alternative here is that if WashU was really an option, to go back to them and ask them to sweeten the offer to a number that you would fine irresistible (or, as they say in The Godfather, you want them to make you an offer that you can't refuse
. However, I only recommend that approach if you know that there is such a number and that you would indeed attend--to me, honesty in negotiation is absolutely essential, and I would only open up a negotiation with WashU if there is a chance they could change your mind. And if they can, be clear about the number that it would take to do that.As far as BC, it's interesting to me that they stood firm. Sometimes schools will do that, other times not. It depends on a lot of different factors, including your numbers and how their own applicant pool is shaping up. Thus, from year to year things will change, and that makes it very tough to predict how a school will act. Did you just send a letter to them about the debt? I ask because maybe it would be in your best interest to call them up and talk to the person who sent you your reply. A real live conversation can sometimes get a school to change their offer--hearing a person is so much different than reading a letter and impersonally replying to it. Perhaps you call them up, thank them so much for taking the time to reply, and let them know if they could just sweeten it a little--say $4K a year or sometime rather minor--you'd sign on the dotted line right then, you might be able to turn them over on this. And if not, what's the harm? You can still tell them you love the school and want to attend.
I get the sense you are leaning towards BC here, and given that the alternative is WashU, I think you are good there. The debt is very similar but BC has better prospects for what you seek.
Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!”