- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:18 am
#34285
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Chase, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Chase's choice between two law schools.
Chase: "Hey Dave, Tough decision over here that has to be made by TOMORROW AT NOON. I've talked to so many different people from all backgrounds and walks of life, and there is no real consensus. Here's hoping you can provide some insight!
My two options:
Harvard (with a 26K per year need-based grant. Total debt works out to about 189K)
Penn (with Levy--faculty and alumni mentor, about 60K debt--for COL)
Background on me: I'm drawn towards public interest/govt. work; however, I would say my end goal would be to work governmental relations for a corporation. The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don't want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I'd take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.
I worry about Penn in terms of its geographic reach. I'm not sure where I'd like to practice, but would like to have Texas open as an option. Your thoughts? Thanks!"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Chase, Thanks for the message! First off, congrats on the amazing choice you have here. Both schools are fantastic, and to get money at Harvard is great but to also have no tuition at Penn is fabulous. There aren't enough adjectives to describe how nice your position is here.
There are two parts where I think I can provide assistance: the debt/job question and the geographic reach of Penn. Let's start by referring to something you said, namely that: "The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don't want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I'd take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety." That comment jumped off the page at me because you are quite clear there that being bogged down by a lot of debt and having to take a BigLaw job that grinds the life out of you is NOT something you are at all interested in. It's also really great that you already know that and can articulate it at this point in the process. Many students don't realize that they feel this way until they are actually in one of those jobs, and ordering Chinese food at 11 PM while working in the office on a Saturday night. So, while $60K is still a significant amount of debt, with the employment prospects of Penn it is certainly manageable. And, actually, $189K is also manageable when you have Harvard on your resume. So either choice here would work out, but obviously when you are so clear about debt-avoidance (or really, BigLaw associate avoidance), that tends to tilt the decision towards Penn in my mind. I believe you also feel that way, and it's why you raised the concern over Penn's geographic influence.
So let's talk about Penn's national reputation. Penn is a perennial T14 school (ranked #7 this year, as you surely know), and they are generally a well-known school nationally and internationally. Are they quite as well-recognized as Harvard or Stanford? No, they aren't on that level. Those schools live in a special strata that includes the most famous universities in the world (like Oxford and Cambridge in England). Penn is one cut below those schools from a reputation standpoint. But still that is quite excellent. To analogize, it's like saying that a player isn't Michael Jordan. Ok, so the player isn't the best in history but that doesn't mean the player isn't good. Maybe they are Charles Barkley or Kareem or Magic--still great in their own right. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. Clerkships are prestigious and highly desirable, and 10% is an extraordinarily high figure (compare it to #15 Georgetown, for example, which sends 3.5% of its students to federal clerkship positions (which is actually a great number compared to most other schools, but is nowhere near the class of Penn). Second, where do Penn grads go to practice? Are they locally constrained and forced to stay in the area? No, they aren't. Only 12.5% practice in Pennsylvania (compare that to a school like Minnesota that has 55% of its grads practicing in MN). Per LST, Penn's geographic placement is as follows:
NY: 48.8%
PA: 12.5%
DC: 9.6%
Texas: 5.8%
So, Texas is the fourth state on the placement list, and probably the figure could be higher if more Penn grads applied for Texas jobs. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldn't have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX.
Bottom line is that if you want to avoid debt then you can safely choose Penn and feel good about it: it's a great school with a strong national reputation, and because of that the grads do well in both quality of position as well as location. It's a top 10 school, and given the lowered debt you'd leave with, it's an incredibly attractive offer. If you instead choose Harvard, well, you've got Harvard on your resume and after that all you need to do is punch out some solid 1L grades and you'll be set.
Last, if you still can't decide, put deposits down at both schools and buy yourself some time. It's a totally practice, and this decision is big enough that if you need more time, then it's worth paying for. See http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/multiple_deposits/ for more info if needed.
Please let me know if that helps, and please let me know what you decide to do!"
Chase: "Hey Dave, Tough decision over here that has to be made by TOMORROW AT NOON. I've talked to so many different people from all backgrounds and walks of life, and there is no real consensus. Here's hoping you can provide some insight!
My two options:
Harvard (with a 26K per year need-based grant. Total debt works out to about 189K)
Penn (with Levy--faculty and alumni mentor, about 60K debt--for COL)
Background on me: I'm drawn towards public interest/govt. work; however, I would say my end goal would be to work governmental relations for a corporation. The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don't want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I'd take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety.
I worry about Penn in terms of its geographic reach. I'm not sure where I'd like to practice, but would like to have Texas open as an option. Your thoughts? Thanks!"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Chase, Thanks for the message! First off, congrats on the amazing choice you have here. Both schools are fantastic, and to get money at Harvard is great but to also have no tuition at Penn is fabulous. There aren't enough adjectives to describe how nice your position is here.
There are two parts where I think I can provide assistance: the debt/job question and the geographic reach of Penn. Let's start by referring to something you said, namely that: "The more I read about BigLaw, the more scared I get. I don't want to spend the first ten years of my professional life, stuck in an 80 hr/week job, with no time to settle down and start a family. This is really important to me, and I'd take a much lower starting salary (than the 180K) in a smaller firm if it meant less hours/cutthroat/anxiety." That comment jumped off the page at me because you are quite clear there that being bogged down by a lot of debt and having to take a BigLaw job that grinds the life out of you is NOT something you are at all interested in. It's also really great that you already know that and can articulate it at this point in the process. Many students don't realize that they feel this way until they are actually in one of those jobs, and ordering Chinese food at 11 PM while working in the office on a Saturday night. So, while $60K is still a significant amount of debt, with the employment prospects of Penn it is certainly manageable. And, actually, $189K is also manageable when you have Harvard on your resume. So either choice here would work out, but obviously when you are so clear about debt-avoidance (or really, BigLaw associate avoidance), that tends to tilt the decision towards Penn in my mind. I believe you also feel that way, and it's why you raised the concern over Penn's geographic influence.
So let's talk about Penn's national reputation. Penn is a perennial T14 school (ranked #7 this year, as you surely know), and they are generally a well-known school nationally and internationally. Are they quite as well-recognized as Harvard or Stanford? No, they aren't on that level. Those schools live in a special strata that includes the most famous universities in the world (like Oxford and Cambridge in England). Penn is one cut below those schools from a reputation standpoint. But still that is quite excellent. To analogize, it's like saying that a player isn't Michael Jordan. Ok, so the player isn't the best in history but that doesn't mean the player isn't good. Maybe they are Charles Barkley or Kareem or Magic--still great in their own right. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. Clerkships are prestigious and highly desirable, and 10% is an extraordinarily high figure (compare it to #15 Georgetown, for example, which sends 3.5% of its students to federal clerkship positions (which is actually a great number compared to most other schools, but is nowhere near the class of Penn). Second, where do Penn grads go to practice? Are they locally constrained and forced to stay in the area? No, they aren't. Only 12.5% practice in Pennsylvania (compare that to a school like Minnesota that has 55% of its grads practicing in MN). Per LST, Penn's geographic placement is as follows:
NY: 48.8%
PA: 12.5%
DC: 9.6%
Texas: 5.8%
So, Texas is the fourth state on the placement list, and probably the figure could be higher if more Penn grads applied for Texas jobs. In other words, the school will play well in Texas, and you shouldn't have any problems having a degree from there when seeking employment in TX.
Bottom line is that if you want to avoid debt then you can safely choose Penn and feel good about it: it's a great school with a strong national reputation, and because of that the grads do well in both quality of position as well as location. It's a top 10 school, and given the lowered debt you'd leave with, it's an incredibly attractive offer. If you instead choose Harvard, well, you've got Harvard on your resume and after that all you need to do is punch out some solid 1L grades and you'll be set.
Last, if you still can't decide, put deposits down at both schools and buy yourself some time. It's a totally practice, and this decision is big enough that if you need more time, then it's worth paying for. See http://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/multiple_deposits/ for more info if needed.
Please let me know if that helps, and please let me know what you decide to do!"