- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:55 am
#34287
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Christine, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Christine's law school decision.
Christine: "I have been struggling with a very tough decision for a few days now.
So, first of all, some background: I live in Little Rock, AR, and my original intent to go to law school was to practice law in this area (kind of interested in getting involved in local politics; my ultimate goal is to eventually become a judge -- but not exactly sure what kind of law I want to practice when I get out). I got accepted to the local law school here in downtown Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law, with almost a full-ride scholarship. I'm not even sure what they're ranked, but it's not in the top 100 -- the benefit here is that I *think* this is where I want to practice, and I could get out of school with only maybe $10,000 or so in debt.
However, I was also placed on the priority wait list at Emory (#22), and I went to visit the campus this past weekend. When speaking with the dean of admissions, he made it sound like I had a pretty good chance of getting in (they said they only didn't admit one or two people from the priority wait list in recent years). If I do get the call that I'm admitted (which could be at any time), I will only have 48 hours to make my decision (!!!). Hence my anxiety about this.
From visiting Emory law school and speaking to students/faculty, it is clear that this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home, but I would most definitely come out of school with AT LEAST $100,000 in debt (if you combine the cost of tuition + the cost of moving and the cost of living in a new city), even with a decent scholarship (they typically don't award more than half the cost of tuition, which is around $50K per year). The appeal here for me, I think, is that even though I am pretty sure I want to end up back in AR, I feel like I wouldn't be limited to that if I got my education at a school that is recognized on the national level.
The question I'm wrestling with is whether or not paying that much more for that superior education would be worth it? Do you think it would have the potential to open up more doors even here in Little Rock if I did return? Or is taking the money and going to school locally going to actually wind up establishing better connections for myself in the future?
ALSO...not to complicate things further, but I also applied to Vanderbilt and am still waiting to hear back from them. Going to school there has always kind of been my dream, and it is a little bit closer to home (only about 4 hours instead of 8.5) -- so if I got in there, even without a scholarship, I feel like that might be even harder to pass up. But I'm still faced with the same question: would it be worth it? And more importantly: am I completely stupid for passing on that kind of opportunity if I do decide to stay here in Little Rock?
Thanks in advance!!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Christine,
Thanks for the message. Wow, having to make a major life-changing decision in only 48 hours is a tough spot to be in! So, knowing that you could be faced with that prospect, you need to do everything within your power right *now* to put all of the relevant information and decision-making tools at your finger tips. That way, when the time comes, you can move quickly and confidently to make the best decision for you. With that in mind, let's talk about it.
First, you need to assemble all of the financial information that you can, and be as detailed as possible. Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Consider things like flights from those cities back home, or the cost of gas if you were to drive. Do that for each year and then multiply it out by three, for each year of law school. Get detailed! If you don't have some of the info, ask. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. that way, instead of thinking that your debt would be at least 100K at Emory, you will be able to state the exact figure.
Second, use some financial calculation tools to get a sense of what different debt levels look like. Here are two that you can start with, but there are others:
Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... lator.aspx
Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... alculator/
Put in different numbers to get a sense of monthly payments, how long it would take to pay off certain debt numbers, etc. This is an important step because it makes the debt real. It's really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. A monthly debt service payment makes it feel a lot more real
Ok, you should both of those things as soon as you can. Next, let's place the schools in perspective by comparing them to each other. In that process I'll use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools.
*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38
*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14
*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)
So, as you've noted, there's a big difference in perceptions between Emory and Vandy vs UALR. You also sensed that when visiting Emory, since you said that "this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home."
Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/):
*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38
Employment Score: 75.0%
Under-employment score: 15.9%
Large Firm: 26%
Small Firm: 15.3%
Federal Clerkship: 3.9%
Public Service: 17.5%
*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14
Employment Score: 78.9%
Under-employment score: 13.5%
Large Firm : 37.3%
Small Firm: 4.3%
Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
Public Service: 11.9%
*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)
Employment Score: 44.4%
Under-employment score: 23.8%
Large Firm: 0.8%
Small Firm: 22.2%
Federal Clerkship: 0.8%
Public Service: 23%
I'm going to be honest: the Bowen numbers aren't good. Not just a bit worse than Vandy or Emory, but a lot worse, and plain bad on their own without being compared to a T25 school. The one thing that gives me some pause is that their bar passage rate is 76.3%, which isn't bad especially since the Arkansas bar is rumored to be somewhat harder than average.
So then, one of your main questions was whether the extra debt is worth it. We don't have the exact debt numbers so we can't judge that yet, but from the above employment figures there is certainly a very reasonable chance that extra debt would indeed be worth it.
The second main question you had involved your area of practice vs where you went to school. The general rule is that at a certain level, big names open doors no matter where you are. The Harvards of the world allow you to go to any city and be competitive. When we talk about Vanderbilt and Emory, we move down a step and one would say that both schools have more of a regional presence than a national presence. Of the two, Vanderbilt is closer to having a full-scale national presence than is Emory; Emory is decidedly more a southern region school than a national reputation school, but it is still well-known in legal circles. As a comparison, although the data was limited, only 22.2% of Vandy students stayed in Tennessee and 12.2% of students went to New York:
• TN: 22.1%
• NY: 12.2%
• TX: 8.1%
At Emory, 56.7% stayed in Georgia (much greater percent indicating stronger local ties as well as a stronger Atlanta legal market), and for New York it was also good, at 10.1%:
• GA: 56.7%
• NY: 10.1%
• FL: 6.7%
The numbers show the top 3 practice states for the grads of each school. The larger point is that both Emory and Vanderbilt are Top 25 schools with excellent reputations, and each has a strong enough reputation to allow their grads to go to the big legal arenas like NYC and compete for jobs. When you moved back to Little Rock, the reputation of each school will help you, and in many ways it might be worth it to have a degree from one of those schools as opposed to just being another UALR grad (as a reference, here are the Bowen numbers: AR: 71.2%; TX: 6.7%; MO: 2.9%. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. One question here is do you want to be one of those many grads looking for a job or would you prefer to be coming in from out of town with a brighter, shinier degree? Who do you think looks more attractive to prospective employers?). Bottom line is that the fact that you hope to be in Little Rock is not a reason for you to automatically select Bowen. All else being equal, I’d personally take a degree from either Emory or Vandy vs Bowen as I think I'd prefer to stand out. And, of course, a Bowen degree basically limits you to Little Rock; a degree from Emory or Vanderbilt gives you many more options if something doesn't open up for you in LR.
The last thing I’ll suggest is for you to read about other what other students have said about their law school decisions (lsat/viewforum.php?f=9). In each case, the student has described the choice they are making, and then I reply and discuss the relevant factors. I want you to read each situation because it will help you see the types of choices and considerations other students faced, and it will also allow you to see the way I prioritized each factor. For example, I tend to be very debt-averse, but I’ll let better job prospects outweigh debt in certain cases. But, if the schools are fairly similar, then I’ll almost always go for the money (example, full ride at Northwestern vs full tuition at Chicago; I take Northwestern since it’s a top school and you graduate with no debt). In your case, the schools in play are very different, especially in the employment results. While I can’t see your final debt numbers, I can take a guess at them and I have a strong suspicion that if I were in your shoes I’d be leaning towards Emory/Vanderbilt.
Ok, that’s a long post but it’s important for you to run the numbers here and think about this choice very carefully, and to do so as quickly as possible. Please let me know what you think, and good luck!"
Christine: "Hi, Dave! Thanks so much for your detailed & well-researched response! I really appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into giving everyone a personalized answer.
I am in the process of making the spreadsheet -- it's definitely helping to see everything laid out next to each other. I also checked out the debt calculators, and wow, you weren't kidding. Seeing the amount of money my future self will have to pay back (and how much money I'll have to make to be able to afford it) is sobering, to say the least!
Though I still have A LOT to think about, I *think* I am still leaning towards taking the offer from Emory or Vanderbilt if I get the chance. Despite the money, it really seems like the kind of opportunity that I would regret not taking.
Thanks again for all of your advice -- this has been a HUGE help for me!"
Dave Killoran: "Thanks for letting me know this helped you! That's why I do this and enjoy it so much.
I'm really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. When the time comes, that will give you confidence to make the best choice for yourself.
Please let me know how things play out--I'm really interested to see where you finally end up. Thanks and good luck!"
Christine: "I have been struggling with a very tough decision for a few days now.
So, first of all, some background: I live in Little Rock, AR, and my original intent to go to law school was to practice law in this area (kind of interested in getting involved in local politics; my ultimate goal is to eventually become a judge -- but not exactly sure what kind of law I want to practice when I get out). I got accepted to the local law school here in downtown Little Rock, William H. Bowen School of Law, with almost a full-ride scholarship. I'm not even sure what they're ranked, but it's not in the top 100 -- the benefit here is that I *think* this is where I want to practice, and I could get out of school with only maybe $10,000 or so in debt.
However, I was also placed on the priority wait list at Emory (#22), and I went to visit the campus this past weekend. When speaking with the dean of admissions, he made it sound like I had a pretty good chance of getting in (they said they only didn't admit one or two people from the priority wait list in recent years). If I do get the call that I'm admitted (which could be at any time), I will only have 48 hours to make my decision (!!!). Hence my anxiety about this.
From visiting Emory law school and speaking to students/faculty, it is clear that this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home, but I would most definitely come out of school with AT LEAST $100,000 in debt (if you combine the cost of tuition + the cost of moving and the cost of living in a new city), even with a decent scholarship (they typically don't award more than half the cost of tuition, which is around $50K per year). The appeal here for me, I think, is that even though I am pretty sure I want to end up back in AR, I feel like I wouldn't be limited to that if I got my education at a school that is recognized on the national level.
The question I'm wrestling with is whether or not paying that much more for that superior education would be worth it? Do you think it would have the potential to open up more doors even here in Little Rock if I did return? Or is taking the money and going to school locally going to actually wind up establishing better connections for myself in the future?
ALSO...not to complicate things further, but I also applied to Vanderbilt and am still waiting to hear back from them. Going to school there has always kind of been my dream, and it is a little bit closer to home (only about 4 hours instead of 8.5) -- so if I got in there, even without a scholarship, I feel like that might be even harder to pass up. But I'm still faced with the same question: would it be worth it? And more importantly: am I completely stupid for passing on that kind of opportunity if I do decide to stay here in Little Rock?
Thanks in advance!!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Christine,
Thanks for the message. Wow, having to make a major life-changing decision in only 48 hours is a tough spot to be in! So, knowing that you could be faced with that prospect, you need to do everything within your power right *now* to put all of the relevant information and decision-making tools at your finger tips. That way, when the time comes, you can move quickly and confidently to make the best decision for you. With that in mind, let's talk about it.
First, you need to assemble all of the financial information that you can, and be as detailed as possible. Start researching now what it would cost to live in Atlanta or Nashville (prepare for all outcomes, not just the most likely ones). Consider things like flights from those cities back home, or the cost of gas if you were to drive. Do that for each year and then multiply it out by three, for each year of law school. Get detailed! If you don't have some of the info, ask. Put together a spreadsheet for each school and fill in every possible item. that way, instead of thinking that your debt would be at least 100K at Emory, you will be able to state the exact figure.
Second, use some financial calculation tools to get a sense of what different debt levels look like. Here are two that you can start with, but there are others:
Michigan Law Debt Wiz Calculator: https://www.law.umich.edu/financialaid/ ... lator.aspx
Washington Post Student Loan Debt Calculator: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... alculator/
Put in different numbers to get a sense of monthly payments, how long it would take to pay off certain debt numbers, etc. This is an important step because it makes the debt real. It's really easy in these conversations to toss number out like $53K or $181K and have them not feel real. A monthly debt service payment makes it feel a lot more real
Ok, you should both of those things as soon as you can. Next, let's place the schools in perspective by comparing them to each other. In that process I'll use rankings from US News and Above the Law, and as much as I think rankings systems have natural flaws, they are useful because they reflect how other people perceive the schools.
*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38
*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14
*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)
So, as you've noted, there's a big difference in perceptions between Emory and Vandy vs UALR. You also sensed that when visiting Emory, since you said that "this is a FAR superior law school than what I would have if I stayed at home."
Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports at https://www.lstreports.com/schools/):
*Emory*
USNews Rank: 22
ATL Rank: 38
Employment Score: 75.0%
Under-employment score: 15.9%
Large Firm: 26%
Small Firm: 15.3%
Federal Clerkship: 3.9%
Public Service: 17.5%
*Vanderbilt*
USNews Rank: 17
ATL Rank: 14
Employment Score: 78.9%
Under-employment score: 13.5%
Large Firm : 37.3%
Small Firm: 4.3%
Federal Clerkship: 9.7%
Public Service: 11.9%
*Arkansas-Little Rock*
USNews Rank: 134
ATL Rank: Unranked (not in top 50)
Employment Score: 44.4%
Under-employment score: 23.8%
Large Firm: 0.8%
Small Firm: 22.2%
Federal Clerkship: 0.8%
Public Service: 23%
I'm going to be honest: the Bowen numbers aren't good. Not just a bit worse than Vandy or Emory, but a lot worse, and plain bad on their own without being compared to a T25 school. The one thing that gives me some pause is that their bar passage rate is 76.3%, which isn't bad especially since the Arkansas bar is rumored to be somewhat harder than average.
So then, one of your main questions was whether the extra debt is worth it. We don't have the exact debt numbers so we can't judge that yet, but from the above employment figures there is certainly a very reasonable chance that extra debt would indeed be worth it.
The second main question you had involved your area of practice vs where you went to school. The general rule is that at a certain level, big names open doors no matter where you are. The Harvards of the world allow you to go to any city and be competitive. When we talk about Vanderbilt and Emory, we move down a step and one would say that both schools have more of a regional presence than a national presence. Of the two, Vanderbilt is closer to having a full-scale national presence than is Emory; Emory is decidedly more a southern region school than a national reputation school, but it is still well-known in legal circles. As a comparison, although the data was limited, only 22.2% of Vandy students stayed in Tennessee and 12.2% of students went to New York:
• TN: 22.1%
• NY: 12.2%
• TX: 8.1%
At Emory, 56.7% stayed in Georgia (much greater percent indicating stronger local ties as well as a stronger Atlanta legal market), and for New York it was also good, at 10.1%:
• GA: 56.7%
• NY: 10.1%
• FL: 6.7%
The numbers show the top 3 practice states for the grads of each school. The larger point is that both Emory and Vanderbilt are Top 25 schools with excellent reputations, and each has a strong enough reputation to allow their grads to go to the big legal arenas like NYC and compete for jobs. When you moved back to Little Rock, the reputation of each school will help you, and in many ways it might be worth it to have a degree from one of those schools as opposed to just being another UALR grad (as a reference, here are the Bowen numbers: AR: 71.2%; TX: 6.7%; MO: 2.9%. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. One question here is do you want to be one of those many grads looking for a job or would you prefer to be coming in from out of town with a brighter, shinier degree? Who do you think looks more attractive to prospective employers?). Bottom line is that the fact that you hope to be in Little Rock is not a reason for you to automatically select Bowen. All else being equal, I’d personally take a degree from either Emory or Vandy vs Bowen as I think I'd prefer to stand out. And, of course, a Bowen degree basically limits you to Little Rock; a degree from Emory or Vanderbilt gives you many more options if something doesn't open up for you in LR.
The last thing I’ll suggest is for you to read about other what other students have said about their law school decisions (lsat/viewforum.php?f=9). In each case, the student has described the choice they are making, and then I reply and discuss the relevant factors. I want you to read each situation because it will help you see the types of choices and considerations other students faced, and it will also allow you to see the way I prioritized each factor. For example, I tend to be very debt-averse, but I’ll let better job prospects outweigh debt in certain cases. But, if the schools are fairly similar, then I’ll almost always go for the money (example, full ride at Northwestern vs full tuition at Chicago; I take Northwestern since it’s a top school and you graduate with no debt). In your case, the schools in play are very different, especially in the employment results. While I can’t see your final debt numbers, I can take a guess at them and I have a strong suspicion that if I were in your shoes I’d be leaning towards Emory/Vanderbilt.
Ok, that’s a long post but it’s important for you to run the numbers here and think about this choice very carefully, and to do so as quickly as possible. Please let me know what you think, and good luck!"
Christine: "Hi, Dave! Thanks so much for your detailed & well-researched response! I really appreciate the amount of time and effort you put into giving everyone a personalized answer.
I am in the process of making the spreadsheet -- it's definitely helping to see everything laid out next to each other. I also checked out the debt calculators, and wow, you weren't kidding. Seeing the amount of money my future self will have to pay back (and how much money I'll have to make to be able to afford it) is sobering, to say the least!
Though I still have A LOT to think about, I *think* I am still leaning towards taking the offer from Emory or Vanderbilt if I get the chance. Despite the money, it really seems like the kind of opportunity that I would regret not taking.
Thanks again for all of your advice -- this has been a HUGE help for me!"
Dave Killoran: "Thanks for letting me know this helped you! That's why I do this and enjoy it so much.
I'm really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. When the time comes, that will give you confidence to make the best choice for yourself.
Please let me know how things play out--I'm really interested to see where you finally end up. Thanks and good luck!"