- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:39 pm
#36591
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Kelly, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Kelly's choice between two law schools.
Kelly: "Hi Dave, I'm trying to decide between Vandy (with 81K scholarship in total) and Cornell (at sticker). I want to practice in New York after graduation and considering that I'm an international student, I feel that I should go to Cornell because of its international recognition in case I must move back to Asia later. I'm okay with living in the middle of nowhere so location is not really an issue. The thing is Vandy seems to place pretty well in New York as well as other places in the US so if my goal is to do biglaw in New York after graduation, both Vandy and Cornell seem to be good choices. Since Vandy is offering me a scholarship, too, it takes some of my burden off. But Cornell is still better ranked, places most of their students in NYC, has more courses that I'm interested in taking than Vandy, and their grading curve is much higher. I want to make up my mind if all of that is worth paying 100K+ more and would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks in advance!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Kelly, This is a bit tougher for me, and I would first off recommend that you do the basic analysis that I've done in other posts here. That should always be your first step because citing numbers in a vacuum--such as an 81K scholarship--doesn't give a fully-realized idea of what the debt involved actually is. You need to know exactly what the final number as far as your debt at each school is. And by the way, this isn't for me--it's for you. As I've said multiple times in the comments on other posts, it really helps when *you* see what the monthly payment is for each school after you graduate. This is especially the case here since I don't have any info about your financial situation, so the evaluation on this point has to be done entirely by you.
Ok, that said, this comes down to a balance between that monthly debt number and what kind of name recognition is worth the extra fee for you in NYC and then possibly later in international job markets. Vandy is a great school in one of the coolest towns in this country, but if you are trying to get a job in a city where they don't know Vandy, then it isn't worth as much to you. This is why it's good that you are looking at the job numbers--these tell the truest picture of how a school's reputation works. I get the feeling that Vandy's placement power surprises you a bit, but this is why you want to look at the stats and not go on perceptions.
As far as intentional placement, I can't speak to that as much since Asian markets are quite varied and I'm not a specialist on placements in the various cities, and also because you are talking about that in several years time, not now. Also, the classes offered have little to no effect on my recommendations simply because so many students find that once in law school their interests turn out to be far different than what they expected (and because most law school courses are basically the same in the first year plus, meaning a high percentage of your legal education is the same at each school).
In the final analysis, I unfortunately don't have enough information from you to give solid advice here. Your financials, your job location preferences and the chances of you staying here vs Asia, and even how you feel about Nashville all are blind spots to me right now. They aren't to you though, and i would weigh each of those options and then decide if it's worth the extra money per month that you have to pay to go to Cornell. Only you know the answer there, but if you approach it systematically and with stats, I think you can do a pretty good job of deciding
"
Kelly: "Thank you very much for the response! I did my research and tuition + expenses comes down to 78K/year for Vandy and 85K/year for Cornell. So with my scholarship offer from Vandy, I'd be paying around 153K in total whereas for Cornell, I'd be paying around 255K. Honestly, finance isn't a problem even though I may feel the psychological burden that I'm investing so much into a three-year education.I'm putting employment post-grad as my priority. I definitely want to live and practice in New York City at least for a few years after graduating before I move elsewhere.
At the same time, I feel fine imagining myself living in Nashville, and I do appreciate the scholarship offer, and I've been hearing good things about the people but mixed opinions on their grading policy. Cornell seems more transparent about their grading policy and since they place well in NYC, I'm okay with paying in full at Cornell but also okay with going with Vanderbilt. What other things should I consider in order to make a decision???"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Kelly, Thanks for the reply! If finance isn't a problem, then it comes down to where you want to go after law school and your personal preferences. The set of factors involved in any decision like this is very personal once you get past money, and from your comments I can see that you've done your due diligence. So I think you should trust what your heart is telling you.
You've been clear that practicing in NYC is a priority, and I'm sure you know that recently Cornell placed about 56% of grads into NY whereas Vandy placed about 16%. At the same time, the percentage of Cornell grads placed into large firms was also significantly higher, although we have to account for the fact that placing in NYC makes it more likely that you are also placing at a larger firm. But it is clear that if NYC is your goal, then Cornell gives you better access and options for that than does Vandy.
If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there aren't too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. You've clearly looked at things like grading and course options, as well as finances, location, rankings, and placement, so I think you've covered the main bases here as far as a decision. Thus, I have no objection to you going with your gut feeling here about Cornell.
I hope that helps, and best of luck to you in law school!"
Kelly: "Hi Dave, I'm trying to decide between Vandy (with 81K scholarship in total) and Cornell (at sticker). I want to practice in New York after graduation and considering that I'm an international student, I feel that I should go to Cornell because of its international recognition in case I must move back to Asia later. I'm okay with living in the middle of nowhere so location is not really an issue. The thing is Vandy seems to place pretty well in New York as well as other places in the US so if my goal is to do biglaw in New York after graduation, both Vandy and Cornell seem to be good choices. Since Vandy is offering me a scholarship, too, it takes some of my burden off. But Cornell is still better ranked, places most of their students in NYC, has more courses that I'm interested in taking than Vandy, and their grading curve is much higher. I want to make up my mind if all of that is worth paying 100K+ more and would really appreciate your opinion. Thanks in advance!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Kelly, This is a bit tougher for me, and I would first off recommend that you do the basic analysis that I've done in other posts here. That should always be your first step because citing numbers in a vacuum--such as an 81K scholarship--doesn't give a fully-realized idea of what the debt involved actually is. You need to know exactly what the final number as far as your debt at each school is. And by the way, this isn't for me--it's for you. As I've said multiple times in the comments on other posts, it really helps when *you* see what the monthly payment is for each school after you graduate. This is especially the case here since I don't have any info about your financial situation, so the evaluation on this point has to be done entirely by you.
Ok, that said, this comes down to a balance between that monthly debt number and what kind of name recognition is worth the extra fee for you in NYC and then possibly later in international job markets. Vandy is a great school in one of the coolest towns in this country, but if you are trying to get a job in a city where they don't know Vandy, then it isn't worth as much to you. This is why it's good that you are looking at the job numbers--these tell the truest picture of how a school's reputation works. I get the feeling that Vandy's placement power surprises you a bit, but this is why you want to look at the stats and not go on perceptions.
As far as intentional placement, I can't speak to that as much since Asian markets are quite varied and I'm not a specialist on placements in the various cities, and also because you are talking about that in several years time, not now. Also, the classes offered have little to no effect on my recommendations simply because so many students find that once in law school their interests turn out to be far different than what they expected (and because most law school courses are basically the same in the first year plus, meaning a high percentage of your legal education is the same at each school).
In the final analysis, I unfortunately don't have enough information from you to give solid advice here. Your financials, your job location preferences and the chances of you staying here vs Asia, and even how you feel about Nashville all are blind spots to me right now. They aren't to you though, and i would weigh each of those options and then decide if it's worth the extra money per month that you have to pay to go to Cornell. Only you know the answer there, but if you approach it systematically and with stats, I think you can do a pretty good job of deciding
" Kelly: "Thank you very much for the response! I did my research and tuition + expenses comes down to 78K/year for Vandy and 85K/year for Cornell. So with my scholarship offer from Vandy, I'd be paying around 153K in total whereas for Cornell, I'd be paying around 255K. Honestly, finance isn't a problem even though I may feel the psychological burden that I'm investing so much into a three-year education.I'm putting employment post-grad as my priority. I definitely want to live and practice in New York City at least for a few years after graduating before I move elsewhere.
At the same time, I feel fine imagining myself living in Nashville, and I do appreciate the scholarship offer, and I've been hearing good things about the people but mixed opinions on their grading policy. Cornell seems more transparent about their grading policy and since they place well in NYC, I'm okay with paying in full at Cornell but also okay with going with Vanderbilt. What other things should I consider in order to make a decision???"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Kelly, Thanks for the reply! If finance isn't a problem, then it comes down to where you want to go after law school and your personal preferences. The set of factors involved in any decision like this is very personal once you get past money, and from your comments I can see that you've done your due diligence. So I think you should trust what your heart is telling you.
You've been clear that practicing in NYC is a priority, and I'm sure you know that recently Cornell placed about 56% of grads into NY whereas Vandy placed about 16%. At the same time, the percentage of Cornell grads placed into large firms was also significantly higher, although we have to account for the fact that placing in NYC makes it more likely that you are also placing at a larger firm. But it is clear that if NYC is your goal, then Cornell gives you better access and options for that than does Vandy.
If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there aren't too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. You've clearly looked at things like grading and course options, as well as finances, location, rankings, and placement, so I think you've covered the main bases here as far as a decision. Thus, I have no objection to you going with your gut feeling here about Cornell.
I hope that helps, and best of luck to you in law school!"