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 Foremostrlty
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#13110
Hi instructor….can you pls help with the setup on this last game of October 2008.
Will be greatly appreciated
Lawrence
 Ron Gore
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#13112
Hi, Lawrence. Thanks for your question, and welcome to the forum!

The game you've asked about has been discussed in detail in a prior post. I encourage you to review that post and see if the information there is helpful for you.

If you have more questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks!

Ron
 Jon Denning
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#13118
Hey Lawrence,

Thanks for the question! Ron has posted a link to a prior discussion of it that you should definitely check out, but I figured I would add a few additional thoughts as well (particularly on rule 4) :-D

This is a tricky game because, while the setup seems fairly straightforward at first (a series of four stops at four places with one of the four passengers exiting at each stop), the second and fourth rules contain language that makes the situation more challenging that it might initially appear.

To set it up, use a base of 1-4 and show two spaces above each base position: one space for the stop (F L M S) and another for the passenger (G J R V). Then you can begin to represent rules and inferences around this eight-position structure.

Let's look at rule 2 and rule 4 and try to make sense of what they're saying:

Rule 2 - essentially this tells us that R does not exit before stop M. R could then exit at M, or after M, just not before M. The best way to show that is M ≥ R.

Functionally, this rule is tough to track because once stop M is reached, R is not obligated to exit at that point, and can still exit at a later stop. However, there are some inferences that can be drawn from this rule.

For instance, if R exits at the first stop, that stop must be M. Similarly, if M is the last stop, R must exit at that stop. These could prove important, but note that unless we have R first or M last there will still be some uncertainty about the relationship between R and M.

Rule 4 - This is the most challenging rule of the game. The first part of this sentence creates a conditional relationship that indicates that if J is still on board when the van reaches S, then G must still be on board when the van reaches S. One representation for this portion of the rule is:

..... F > J :arrow: S > G

Of course, the contrapositive for this portion would be:

..... G > S :arrow: J > F

The second portion of the rule indicates that if J is not still on board when the van reaches F (J > F), then G is not still on board when the van reaches S (G > S), which can be diagrammed as:

..... J > F :arrow: G > S

By combining the contrapositive of the first portion with the diagram for the second portion, we arrive at:

..... G > S :dbl: J > F

This diagram means that the two conditions must always occur jointly. Conversely, if one of the two conditions does not occur, the other one will not occur either. In a nutshell, either both conditions happen, or both do not happen.

With the second and fourth rules now (hopefully) better understood, take another look at this game and see if you are better able to address the questions. And please let me know if you are still having trouble.

Thanks!

Jon
 Foremostrlty
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#13124
Hi Jon,
Thks soo much for your response... I really appreciates it and excited...am in the office now....will go over it with the setup and explanation you gave me .....surely will let you know how it played out wen I get home....
Lawrence
 Foremostrlty
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#13131
Hi Jon,
Thanks so much for the explanation on this game setup, i went through the rules as you explained but i can't under std the last rule because based on what was given that 'If J is still on board when the van reaches F,then G is still on board when the van reaches S; Otherwise, G is not still on board when the van reaches S.
Based on what i under std…..i thought the rule is saying 'if F>J Then S>G; Otherwise G>S but you explained it by flipping the( *) which is not clear to me….does it mean that 'Otherwise' in this context means a flip or contrapositive of the asterix …means 'J > F '

I hope you will understand my concern….please if you can clear this part….i will really appreciates it.
Thanks
Lawrence A.
 Nikki Siclunov
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#13192
Hi Lawrence,

Let me add my 2c to Jon's excellent breakdown of the game above. The word "otherwise," in this context, is identical to the statement, "if the sufficient condition does not occur." Let's use a simpler hypothetical:
  • If I go to the bar, I'll have fun. Otherwise, I'll be bored.
Bar :arrow: Fun

Bar :arrow: Bored (i.e. Fun)

So, in the context of the rule you mentioned, "otherwise" essentially means, "if J is NOT still on board when the van reaches F." In other words, if J got off before F (J > F).

Let me know if this makes sense :-)

Thanks!
 Foremostrlty
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  • Joined: Dec 05, 2013
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#13198
Omg....Nikki,
Thanks soooo much......now i got it !!!
I am very excited and happy with the clarification on this word "Otherwise"....
Thanks so much Jon & Nikki for your assistance....I am very very happy...
Thanks
Lawrence A.
 reop6780
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#14815
This game was most challenging for me.

I assume this is advanced linear question.

The way rules were worded make it more difficult.

For example, "Rosa is still on board when the van reaches Mineola."

I make a diagram as the following:

_ R R
M > _ or M


Is this diagram efficient?

I was confused so many times reading my own diagrams.

what is even worse is the last rule.

I basically made a diagram just like the previous one in sufficient and necessary conditions.

Is there any inference that I can make with the last rule?

All I realized was that the last rule leads to double arrows :dbl: .

It was too much for me to digest all the rules and make further inference.

So I moved on to individual questions, and sometimes it helps doing so without making concrete inference as questions create unique situations.

However, I am not sure whether I was meant to try individual questions without inference of set of rules as I wasted so much time for every single questions as if there were important inferences that I was supposed to make.

Could you give some tips to approach these rules and questions other than Q19, which is obviously list question.
 Adam Tyson
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#14826
"Still on board when the van reaches X" means "does not get off before" - that's tricky, because some folks think that must mean they do not get off at that stop, when they can. Think about it in real world terms - if I am still on a bus when it arrives in Denver, can I then get off in Denver? Sure! So, that second rule is M > R. It can also be written as R > M.

The conditional last rule is indeed similar - if F > J -> S > G and J > F -> G > S. That does lead to double arrow scenarios, as you said - J > F <-> G > S and J > F <-> G > S.

You're right that there are not a lot of inferences here. The V > J rule gives you two not-laws, and that's about it. You could also try one or two hypotheticals - for example, if R gets off at the first or second stop, then what?

Otherwise, this is a game that does indeed require you to dive in and figure a lot out as you go. Your approach, and your diagram, look good to me. Drive on!
 asalusti
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  • Joined: Jun 14, 2015
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#19563
I attempted the set up for the 4th game but couldn't figure it out.

Could someone show me what the set up for this game would look like?

Thanks
-Alaina

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