Picking up a law school

[Dave Killoran]

Hey Kev,

Let me also add my congrats to you! We're now getting into an area where a lot of the decision will rely on your personal preferences. If I understand this correctly, on the one hand you have Pennsylvania (ranked: 86th) with a full ride vs Maryland (ranked: 48th) at $15k the first year and conditional thereafter. I can see that the ranking difference is drawing you in (naturally!). The one thing I'll say is: never rely 100% on conditional scholarships being there all three years. Often they are, but I've known students who made the decision based on the conditional money, and then lost it. Not saying that would happen with you, just saying you should factor that possibility into your thinking.

I agree with everything Nikki said, and if it was me, I'd still take the full ride. But, you have to make the decision that you feel best about—you need a school that you will enjoy and that you are proud of. That will give you the best chance to excel. Maybe that's Penn State, and maybe that's Maryland. They both have recognizable names in their regions.

Nikki is also right to note that Maryland's law school isn't on the College Park campus; it's over in Baltimore. Some people like the location a lot, but you should at last be aware of it.

As I said above, you've got to make the decision that feels most comfortable to you. Maryland and UConn are pretty similar to me. If UConn didn't give you money and you don't love the location, I see no reason to second guess your decision to drop them

I hope that helps. Please keep us informed of ay updates. Thanks!

[kev2015]

Hello Dave and Nikki,

Thank you so much for the messages! And, as always, the suggestions are super helpful.

1) Regarding Maryland vs. Connecticut, I would prefer Maryland over UConn, as I prefer bigger cities. A lot of people have said that the downtown Baltimore location affected their school experience, but I am just wondering, is it because the city is not good/boring/isolated, OR because it is not on the main campus? I have never been to Baltimore, so I do not fully understand why so many students are complaining about the location.

2) Although The Penn State Dickinson law school gave me a full scholarship, it is also conditional. Do you know how is it like to be on the Dickinson campus? Because a lot of ppl said that since the law school is not on the main campus, we will be very isolated in both the school location/city, and the overall university experience.

3) I have recently discussed about some of the school offers on toplawschools.com, and I have been bombarded by comments saying that I should NOT go to law school, because with these offers (and even if i get off waitlists schools like Illinois, William Mary), I will end up with NO job, and let alone BigLaw job opportunities. They said that going to these law schools is wasting money, and even students in T14 should be careful about the decision. Also, since I am an international student, it will even be harder for me to get a job, because I will either need to go to BigLaw (which they believe i won't have a chance at all), OR international non-profit organization (which the income would be quite low). I have checked the employment statistics for Maryland, and it is true that not many students end up in BigLaw, and the median income is not as high as expected, around 50,000-60,000$ (which is around what I am earning now with an undergrad degree). With your experience on law schools, and knowledge about the US market, what would you think about these concerns and comments?

4) I have also paid a deposit for American U. I have just checked their employment statistics, and it feels that among Maryland, Chicago-Kent, Penn State (the three schools I have paid deposit at), American U has quite a high number of BigLaw grads (>firms 500 staff). So I am wondering, would that translate into a higher average starting salary and higher BigLaw chances for American U students? It feels that Penn State and Maryland are much more well-known universities than American U, BUT the employment statistics for American U, given a school of this ranking, is really quite impressive.

Again, Thank you very much for everything!!

[kev2015]

Actually, please disregard my question #4. I have just realized that the total number of graduating students is much higher for American U, thus the higher number of students going to BigLaw.

Then, I have another question:

5) Today I have just checked the 2015 ABA required employment stats for all the schools that have waitlisted/admitted me so far, and if I consider BigLaw as a firm that has a minimum of 100 staff, then the schools that have the best results for BigLaw are: U of Illinois is the best one, then William Mary, and then U of Houston.
- Although in the previous threads, you have said that Houston is not that worth it going, and that Texas might not be for everyone, I am just wondering, would it be worth it more on going given that it has better employment stats? How would that compare to Maryland for example? For Houston, I have been given a scholarship of 5000$ per year, and also a reduced in-state tuition, which is another 15000$ less per year.
- I understand that Penn State has give me a full tuition scholarship, but I checked the ABA employment stats, it has really bad BigLaw results. Is this something that I should worry about?

Thank you very much!!

[BethRibet]

Hi Kev,

In the long-run, if you are fairly sure that you are going to be inclined to work at a big firm over the long haul (given potentially 70-80 hour work weeks for some time), then I would prioritize the school that will best position you for the jobs you want, with less weight given to how much aid they're offering you now. You can however, contact school admissions and ask them to match another school's offer. Some will do it, as getting competitive students helps their rankings.

I wouldn't worry overmuch however about placement in big firms -- the stats often reflect the fact that many graduates search for jobs either in their home cities, or in the same city or state they went to law school. So for instance, schools in NYC or LA will potentially place more students in big firms than those in the midwest, simply because there are more big firms locally. Penn State of course places some students in big firms in Philadelphia, but there are only so many big firms in PA, as compared for instance, to NY or DC.

But if you're geographically flexible, perform well in Law School, and the school is highly ranked, you can chase down the jobs you want anywhere in the country. On that front though, one thing to keep in mind is that alumni networks help in hiring, and are usually strongest closest to the school. So for instance, if you knew you wanted a job in DC, then going to school in Maryland as long as it's a strong school, might be more helpful than going to a comparably ranked school in Houston. However, top schools will still help you get jobs anywhere, so I would generally focus on going wherever the ranking is highest, as long as it's somewhere you're okay living for three years.

Hope this helps!
Beth

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hi Kent,

Let me briefly answer each of your questions:

1) Regarding Maryland vs. Connecticut, I would prefer Maryland over UConn, as I prefer bigger cities. A lot of people have said that the downtown Baltimore location affected their school experience, but I am just wondering, is it because the city is not good/boring/isolated, OR because it is not on the main campus? I have never been to Baltimore, so I do not fully understand why so many students are complaining about the location.

Baltimore takes some getting used to. It has a reputation as a rather gritty, urban environment with one of the highest crime rates in the nation. You can even check their homicide map to find out where each of the 29 homicides occurred in the last 30 days. Now, I don't mean to scare you or suggest that Baltimore should be off-limits: I know a ton of people who go to John Hopkins, and they seem to be doing just fine Only you can decide how important the quality of life is in the city you choose, but I strongly recommend that you visit every school under serious consideration, especially U. Maryland.

2) Although The Penn State Dickinson law school gave me a full scholarship, it is also conditional. Do you know how is it like to be on the Dickinson campus? Because a lot of ppl said that since the law school is not on the main campus, we will be very isolated in both the school location/city, and the overall university experience.

I have never been to Penn State, so I can’t comment on what it’s like to be on the Dickinson campus. If you can’t visit, should at least get in touch with their admissions office and ask to speak to current students about their experience. You’ll be amazed how much information you can find that way.

Regarding conditional scholarship offers, this website will tell you what percentage of incoming students end up keeping their conditional scholarship offers:

Conditional Scholarships

For some reason, it doesn’t list any info on Penn State, but you’re considering other schools so that might be useful.

3) I have recently discussed about some of the school offers on toplawschools.com, and I have been bombarded by comments saying that I should NOT go to law school, because with these offers (and even if i get off waitlists schools like Illinois, William Mary), I will end up with NO job, and let alone BigLaw job opportunities. They said that going to these law schools is wasting money, and even students in T14 should be careful about the decision. Also, since I am an international student, it will even be harder for me to get a job, because I will either need to go to BigLaw (which they believe i won't have a chance at all), OR international non-profit organization (which the income would be quite low). I have checked the employment statistics for Maryland, and it is true that not many students end up in BigLaw, and the median income is not as high as expected, around 50,000-60,000$ (which is around what I am earning now with an undergrad degree). With your experience on law schools, and knowledge about the US market, what would you think about these concerns and comments?

Posters on TLS can be a bit… harsh, and the advice they dispense is, at times, tinged with elitism and self-satisfaction. That’s to be expected (and hey, I actually like TLS and think it is a useful site!). Nevertheless, I must say that if BigLaw is the ultimate goal, that’s a long shot coming out of any of the schools you’ve listed. Let’s look at some numbers – check out the links below, which show the employment breakdown of each school by employer type and location:

University of Maryland
University of Connecticut
American

At all of these schools, only about 20% of their graduating class is employed at a law firm, and a closer look reveals that the vast majority work for firms with fewer than 10 attorneys. At all three schools, less than 10% find jobs with a big law firm (100+ attorneys), which makes perfect sense – most BigLaw employers who recruit there will want you to be in the top 10% of your class before you even get an interview.

The University of Houston is, objectively speaking, a better option than any of the above: about half of their graduates end up working in a law firm, with about 17% of them in BigLaw. Keep in mind, however, that the school places almost exclusively in Texas (more than 90% of their graduates stay there). If you’re considering it, definitely visit Houston and see if it’s a city you’d like to call home. Also, check out their TLS profile and ATL profile. What makes Houston even more attractive is your scholarship there, along with the in-state tuition. Combined, these knock the sticker price down by $20,000. That’s not bad at all.

Judging by the employment numbers alone, Houston gives you an edge over Maryland or Penn State: it has better employment prospects than either school, which is most likely due to its location in the fourth largest city in the country. Baltimore is much smaller, by comparison. One can also argue that Houston is a better place to spend 3 years in than Baltimore, but this is purely subjective and it’s not a judgment I am prepared to make. (I haven’t been to either city myself.) Objectively speaking, Houston will give you a better shot at a BigLaw job than any of the other schools you’ve listed—you will need to be top-20% of your class to get such a job, compared to top-10% anywhere else. Still a long shot, but better than any of the other contenders.

If you manage get into Illinois, that would be even better. It places well in BigLaw, especially in the Midwest. About 50% of their graduating class ends up working at a law firm, with almost 25% of them in a large firm. It’s the highest-ranked law school you’ve listed, so hopefully you'll get off that WL

Hope this helps with the decision-making process. Fingers crossed for more WL acceptances

[Dave Killoran]

Hey Kev,

I think Nikki has covered things extremely well, so I don't have much to add. I do note that the parameters of what you are seeking seem to have changed: previously I didn't note a focus on Biglaw, but now it seems to be the central criterion in how you are evaluating schools. That's fine of course, but it does change the calculus of the schools you look at. I also wasn't aware that your Penn State scholarship was conditional—that lowers the value of it, because as you can see from the stats Nikki provided, there is no guarantee that you retain that scholarship after the first year. So, both these factors would lower my assessment of the value of the Penn State offer. Relatively speaking, that makes the other offers more attractive. Only you can make the decision, but with the weight of various factors changing, it makes the decision harder imho.

One of the main arguments against law school is that many students end up carrying a lot of debt afterwards. And, when you now factor in your Biglaw interest and related chances, the TLS posters were right to be concerned. Those same concerns were some of the reasons I liked the Penn State offer: it seemingly offered you a free education, which eliminated the debt portion of the equation (now, that's not guaranteed). So, I don't think that's a reason not to go to law school at all, but in balancing all these factors you need to weigh debt/scholarships vs employment chances.

Anyway, these new factors add more dimension to the decision, and make it more complex. This resuscitates some of the prior offers and perhaps devalues some of the former leaders.

Good luck with the decision!

[kev2015]

Dear Dave and Nikki,

THANK YOU all for the suggestions! I must really say that you are the most experienced, helpful, encouraging and nice people I've encountered throughout my path towards law school. I have taken your LSAT prep courses before, and I only started looking at this forum later after the course, and I cannot believe the amount of helpful information and suggestions that I can receive from here. I am an international student, not super familiar with the US law school system and with US overall, and when I was so desperate about what to do with my law school career, you have given me all the support.

I will continue on writing a bit more about my law school considerations and preferences.

- Regarding the scholarships, all the schools with scholarships have given me a conditional scholarship, EXCEPT for:
1) Chicago-Kent, which has given me a guaranteed scholarship for three years, and
2) U of Houston, with scholarship and Texas resident tuition rate, thus a total of over 14,000$ per year. The scholarship will renew automatically as long as I remain in good standing.

- Regarding my law school future debt, this is not the biggest worry, as I have the money available there now for law school. Of course, attending with a scholarship would be extremely great, and I would definitely choose to attend a school with scholarship given that all other factors between two schools are the approximately the same.

- Regarding BigLaw: As I am an international student, I would leave to keep the option of practicing in the US, and going back to my home country open. I do not necessarily absolutely have to go to BigLAw, but of course being able to work there would be my dream. I feel that there is a positive correlation between law school ranking/location vs. BigLaw vs. salary. The average salary for students that are not going to BigLaw is around 50,000-70,000$, with 60,000$ being the median I feel. But I am actually already earning in that range now as a fresh undergraduate student. I have graduated from a top 25 world ranking school with a background in engineering. So this is why I keep on emphasizing BigLaw, because i feel that there is no purpose for me of going to law school if when I graduate I would be earning the same. And even going back to my home country, it would be much easier to get a good job if we have worked at BigLaw, or have at least received offers from them.
On TLS, they just tell me to abandon law school and do something else. But I really want to go study law, and I already have an idea of what I want to do with my engineering and law degrees combined. A lot of people also say that law school's employment is really bad now, but overall the entire employment market is not that good now

- Regarding law school choices - Personally, I don't like the city Houston and Texas overall that much. I prefer much the east coast, such as Boston, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Washington DC, etc. over Texas, North Carolina and California/Louisiana. I have heard some very bad things about international students not being able to adjust to the Texas culture. I was going to abandon Houston, until I saw their employment stats to the other schools

- Among my admitted schools so far, ONLY ranking and reputation-wise, in terms of overall and law school reputation, would Maryland be the best choice? Btw, I also got admitted into Georgia State U. I like the Atlanta location, but some ppl said that 90% of its students are from Georgia, and this might not be the best school for me. What do you think?

- I think that I will be going to the US and visit the law schools, and also try to meet with an admissions person for my waitlisted schools to try to leave a better impression. My first choice is Illinois, then William Mary. But it feels that this year, William Mary is not lacking seat deposits.

Thank you again in advance for your comments, suggestions, analysis and time!!!

[Dave Killoran]

Hey Kev,

Would you mind listing out all the schools you've applied to, your admissions status at each, any financial aid package info you have for each, and your general feelings about each. This thread has gotten a bit long, and that would help us make sure we're not missing any key info here Then we'll come in and address the questions in your last post.

Thanks!

[kev2015]

Hi Dave,

Thank you for the reply. Here is my list of admitted/accepted schools so far.

Accepted:
1) U of Utah
2) Maryland (15000$ first year, conditional for upper years)
3) Temple
4) Georgia State
5) U of Houston (5000$ per year + resident tuition for three years)
6) Seton Hall
7) U of Connecticut
8) Miami (deferred admission)
9) American
10) U of San Diego (deferred admission)
11) Loyola Chicago
12) Chicago Kent (90,000$ guaranteed for 3 years)
13) Santa Clara
14) Penn State Dickinson (full scholarship, conditional)

Waitlisted:
1) U of Iowa
2) College William Mary (2nd choice)
3) Indiana Maurer Bloomington
4) U of Illinois (top choice)
5) George Mason
6) Washington and Lee
7) Wake Forest
8) Tulane
9) U of Richmond
10) UC Hastings
11) Northeastern
12) Loyola Marymount Los Angeles

Thank you very much!!

[Nikki Siclunov]

Hi kev2015,

Thanks for all the info. Wow - that's a LOT of schools you've applied to, especially since your list doesn't even include the schools you've been rejected at. Obviously, it's too late to change that, but I wonder what selection strategy you used when deciding where to apply. Anyway, as a (former) international student myself, I completely understand your perspective. I had to choose from 4,000 U.S. colleges and universities about which I knew very little, so I basically applied to every school that was either in the Ivy League or gave me an application waiver Luckily, a full scholarship at Harvard made this an easy choice for me, but then again - the stakes are much higher when you're applying to law school. So is the opportunity cost.

You're already making above the median salary for most lawyers coming out of 3rd/4th-Tier schools, so it really doesn't make sense to lose 3 years of income and pay $200K in tuition unless there is a significant likelihood of increased earning potential. With a background in engineering, you can pursue a legal career patent and/or IP law, for which there is a lot of demand. Check out the rankings for that area of specialization here.

I do think that Houston will give you the best bang for your buck, especially since it also has a very reputable IP program, and its employment score is the highest of any school you've listed. However, Texas - and especially Houston as a city - is not for everyone, especially if you're not from the U.S. The university has virtually no international reputation, and it will limit your employment prospects to Texas and the South. Personally, the only city in Texas I would ever live in is Austin. Definitely visit, if you're seriously considering it.

Now that I know a bit more about your background, I would give American more serious consideration. Yes, it is only the third best law school in Washington, D.C., and its placement in BIGLAW is limited to the top-10% of the class. It will also cost you quite a bit of money. However, American has the strongest international reputation of all the schools you've listed, so if you want to work abroad - its name will carry some weight. American also has a very strong IP law program. I also prefer its location to that of any of the other law schools you've listed. Washington, D.C. is a great city to spend 3 years, especially if you want to be an attorney, and especially if you're an international student.

I would also give Temple some thought. Its location in Philadelphia is not ideal (North Philly is still a rough neighborhood), but its proximity to both the NYC and DC markets is strategically advantageous. It places a bit better than American in BIGLAW, and it's still on the East Coast.

If money is not a concern, I see no reason to choose either Penn State or Maryland. Do your best to get into Illinois, but if not - I think the schools I've mentioned above are your best bet. Keep in mind that virtually all the schools you've listed carry a serious risk of underemployment and sunk opportunity cost.

Let us know if there is anything else we can help you with!

Good luck!