- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mar 31, 2017
- Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:27 pm
#33812
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student's parent, Todd, and two of our Admissions gurus, Dave and Nikki, regarding Todd's son's pending decision: a full ride to NYU, or Harvard with no scholarship?
Todd: “My son has a strong interest in academia law. If he gets accepted to Yale, he will probably accept it (besides its many strong attributes they have a superior loan repayment program). In the meantime he is deliberating between Harvard Law and NYU with a full tuition scholarship coupled with direct mentoring from a NYU law professor (the Vanderbilt scholarship).
Based on the pool of people he has spoken to, the consensus is leaning towards Harvard and the better choice which is the advice in your article. However, a law professor(from a non-top 20 law school) my son spoke to thought the NYU mentoring arrangement was special and might actually yield him more benefit in pursuing an academia career than attending HLS.
Would the promise by NYU of individualized counseling change the equation in your analysis?”
Dave Killoran: “Hi Todd, Thanks for the question! I'll try to touch on a number of different considerations here, just to give you both some things to think about.
First, congrats to your son on the offers he's received thus far--he's clearly a top-notch candidate!
Second, there are a few different factors floating around here, one of which is cost. I can't tell from your post if money/debt is an important consideration but obviously it is for most people. If both Harvard and NYU are offering full rides, that would be a very different picture compared to a situation where NYU is a full ride and Harvard is full cost.
Third, the scholarship and mentoring is a fabulous opportunity, and one worth thinking about. The nice thing is that his ability to work with a professor under a preset arrangement is fixed in place, and he has a guarantee that he will get that time and attention. However, those relationships can and are formed at every school, albeit in a less formalized arrangement. The question is, does your son have the kind of personality that would seek out and develop such a relationship? If so, then that lowers the importance of what NYU is offering (that said, it's a great offer from NYU because it's certain). There's also a question of who the mentor would be, which can impact the value of the relationship.
Where you got to law school does have a huge impact on your opportunities within the legal field and academia (Harvard and Yale are the two top-producing schools when it comes to Supreme Court justices, for example). If all else is equal, going to the best "name" school is often call. NYU and Harvard are both top schools, but Harvard has the edge in name recognition and prestige.
One overlooked aspect of this decision is which school does he think he would enjoy the most? This is important because law school is tough, and the more you enjoy your environment, the better you tend to perform. And for academic positions, his grades will be a huge deal. So, he needs to be in the best possible environment for him to succeed.
I realize that's not a definitive answer, but I don't think we have enough info about your son to make a call (nor should we--this has to be his decision).
Please let me know if this helps, and again, congratulations--this is the kind of choice everyone would love to have!”
Nicolay Siclunov: “Hi Todd, I completely agree with Dave here (congrats to your son, btw - he has the most enviable of choices to make!)
Regarding NYU with full scholarship vs. Harvard, there are two main issues here:
1. How certain is your son that he wants to pursue an academic career? If he's dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. You need to realize, however, that such a decision is really difficult to make before even stepping foot in law school. What if he changes his mind and decides to do corporate law? Or get into politics with the hopes of becoming a judge? Or join the Justice Department? Or become a public defender? Or federal prosecutor? The list goes on... I'm not saying that Harvard will be ill-suited for such pursuits (quite on the contrary); however, NYU will arguably be just as good of a choice, one that will save him the equivalent of a downpayment on a mortgage. Furthermore, while there are indeed more HLS alums as Supreme Court clerks, professors, and SCOTUS justices, these statistics don't confirm that HLS is vastly superior to NYU in preparing its students to join these elite ranks. You are looking at a self-selected sample: what if HLS students are merely more likely to compete for such positions in the first place? There is also an outcome bias here, judging a decision based on the outcome alone. If he's a student at or near the top of his class at NYU, with stellar mentoring and no debt, there will be nothing - NOTHING - to stop him from pursuing whatever career he wants - even in academia or the judiciary. The first step will be securing a federal clerkship with a feeder judge, something a top NYU Law student is just as likely to secure as a HLS student.
2. Is cost a considerable factor here? If your son plans to borrow money to attend Harvard or Yale, even with their excellent loan forgiveness programs, the debt will be a burden that may shape the future decisions he makes. Having no debt will give him a lot more freedom than even the best loan forgiveness program in the world. Of course, if cost is not a factor - i.e. he or you will be paying for his education out of pocket - then by all means, let him go to Harvard!
The name has a nice ring to it, and it's a wonderful place to spend 3 years. (I went there, I know ). Needless to say, your son needs to visit both schools and get a feel for each.
One decision may be wiser than the other, but there is no "wrong" choice here. Let us know what you guys decide to do!”
Todd: “My son has a strong interest in academia law. If he gets accepted to Yale, he will probably accept it (besides its many strong attributes they have a superior loan repayment program). In the meantime he is deliberating between Harvard Law and NYU with a full tuition scholarship coupled with direct mentoring from a NYU law professor (the Vanderbilt scholarship).
Based on the pool of people he has spoken to, the consensus is leaning towards Harvard and the better choice which is the advice in your article. However, a law professor(from a non-top 20 law school) my son spoke to thought the NYU mentoring arrangement was special and might actually yield him more benefit in pursuing an academia career than attending HLS.
Would the promise by NYU of individualized counseling change the equation in your analysis?”
Dave Killoran: “Hi Todd, Thanks for the question! I'll try to touch on a number of different considerations here, just to give you both some things to think about.
First, congrats to your son on the offers he's received thus far--he's clearly a top-notch candidate!
Second, there are a few different factors floating around here, one of which is cost. I can't tell from your post if money/debt is an important consideration but obviously it is for most people. If both Harvard and NYU are offering full rides, that would be a very different picture compared to a situation where NYU is a full ride and Harvard is full cost.
Third, the scholarship and mentoring is a fabulous opportunity, and one worth thinking about. The nice thing is that his ability to work with a professor under a preset arrangement is fixed in place, and he has a guarantee that he will get that time and attention. However, those relationships can and are formed at every school, albeit in a less formalized arrangement. The question is, does your son have the kind of personality that would seek out and develop such a relationship? If so, then that lowers the importance of what NYU is offering (that said, it's a great offer from NYU because it's certain). There's also a question of who the mentor would be, which can impact the value of the relationship.
Where you got to law school does have a huge impact on your opportunities within the legal field and academia (Harvard and Yale are the two top-producing schools when it comes to Supreme Court justices, for example). If all else is equal, going to the best "name" school is often call. NYU and Harvard are both top schools, but Harvard has the edge in name recognition and prestige.
One overlooked aspect of this decision is which school does he think he would enjoy the most? This is important because law school is tough, and the more you enjoy your environment, the better you tend to perform. And for academic positions, his grades will be a huge deal. So, he needs to be in the best possible environment for him to succeed.
I realize that's not a definitive answer, but I don't think we have enough info about your son to make a call (nor should we--this has to be his decision).
Please let me know if this helps, and again, congratulations--this is the kind of choice everyone would love to have!”
Nicolay Siclunov: “Hi Todd, I completely agree with Dave here (congrats to your son, btw - he has the most enviable of choices to make!)
Regarding NYU with full scholarship vs. Harvard, there are two main issues here:
1. How certain is your son that he wants to pursue an academic career? If he's dead set on it, then Harvard and Yale probably do win, with or without money at other top-10 law schools. You need to realize, however, that such a decision is really difficult to make before even stepping foot in law school. What if he changes his mind and decides to do corporate law? Or get into politics with the hopes of becoming a judge? Or join the Justice Department? Or become a public defender? Or federal prosecutor? The list goes on... I'm not saying that Harvard will be ill-suited for such pursuits (quite on the contrary); however, NYU will arguably be just as good of a choice, one that will save him the equivalent of a downpayment on a mortgage. Furthermore, while there are indeed more HLS alums as Supreme Court clerks, professors, and SCOTUS justices, these statistics don't confirm that HLS is vastly superior to NYU in preparing its students to join these elite ranks. You are looking at a self-selected sample: what if HLS students are merely more likely to compete for such positions in the first place? There is also an outcome bias here, judging a decision based on the outcome alone. If he's a student at or near the top of his class at NYU, with stellar mentoring and no debt, there will be nothing - NOTHING - to stop him from pursuing whatever career he wants - even in academia or the judiciary. The first step will be securing a federal clerkship with a feeder judge, something a top NYU Law student is just as likely to secure as a HLS student.
2. Is cost a considerable factor here? If your son plans to borrow money to attend Harvard or Yale, even with their excellent loan forgiveness programs, the debt will be a burden that may shape the future decisions he makes. Having no debt will give him a lot more freedom than even the best loan forgiveness program in the world. Of course, if cost is not a factor - i.e. he or you will be paying for his education out of pocket - then by all means, let him go to Harvard!
The name has a nice ring to it, and it's a wonderful place to spend 3 years. (I went there, I know ). Needless to say, your son needs to visit both schools and get a feel for each. One decision may be wiser than the other, but there is no "wrong" choice here. Let us know what you guys decide to do!”