- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Mar 31, 2017
- Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:48 am
#33875
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Nikki, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Nikki's choice between a full ride or negotiated scholarship. Students Ryan and Josie also comment.
Nikki: Hi guys! I am agonizing over this decision and need some input from someone KNOWLEDGEABLE and who knows the state of TODAY'S legal market. I cannot read anymore blogs(especially those from 2010)/get opinions from people who don't know the market! I plan on living and working in NYC. I'm from Long Island so I may move out to the 'burbs again later on but not while in school/shortly thereafter. I’ve received decisions from Fordham and Cardozo. Sticker and Fordham, 100% tuition unconditional at Cardozo. I would love to do biglaw, for the money obviously, but I am completely aware that this is in no way a guarantee, especially with the Columbia/NYU competition. Mostly, I want to be successful and make as much money as possible. I am an older-generation student (I'll be entering at 30) and have worked as a paralegal and taken legal courses to gain a paralegal certificate. I am researching how to study and think(hope) I have a grip on what lies ahead. I am hoping this will translate into a competitive advantage against my younger peers-but again I know anything goes. One bad final and I'm screwed. Anyway, I was hoping to get some input on my choices outlined above. $300k (I'm including NYC COL) for Fordam with more prestige/better employment prospects/potential higher salary? Or free ride with $90k debt (COL only) at Cardozo and hustle for a job with a (very) likely lower salary? Thanks so much for taking the time.”
Nikki: “Hi it's Nikki. I have an update on the above. I was awarded 30k per year at Fordham. I'm leaning towards Fordham but the debt still scares me. I was just wondering if you had and thoughts or input. Thanks so much!”
Dave Killoran: “Hey Nikki, Ok, let's run this down one more time. the choices are:
Fordham, which results in $210K debt after the $30K per year is applied
OR
Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total
Do I have that right? And, are there any other schools still in play at this point? If I have all the facts right, then I'll add some thoughts. Thanks!”
Nikki: “You are correct in the above, except I did a little negotiating and got 5k more per year at Fordham. That was the most they are willing to give. I would SO appreciate your thoughts. I have full ride to st John's and 90% tuition at Brooklyn, but the two main contenders are Fordham and Cardozo. Thanks so much again.”
Ryan: “Nikki, My gf is in almost the exact same situation. She has full rides to several schools but at this point is only considering St. John's, North Eastern, and Villanova. She also has 80% at GMU and 25k a year at Fordham. She is AGONIZING over the best school to choose. She would like to practice BigLaw, but is wondering if the 60k total in loans is worth it for Fordham when she can go to St. John's or Nova on full rides…”
Ryan: “Nikki, How did you go about asking for more money at Fordham? Did u cite specific schools as leverage?”
Nikki: “Hi Ryan! I know this is so so so hard. That's exactly what I did!”
Ryan: “Nikki, Which schools in particular if u dont mind me asking?”
Nikki: “I don't mind...St. John's and Cardozo.”
Dave Killoran:“Hey Nikki, Ok, so the latest situation is:
Fordham, which results in $195K debt after the $35K per year is applied
OR
Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total
In other words, about $100K more in total debt to attend Fordham. Oh boy, this is not easy at all! Law is often a rankings game, and Fordham comes in at #37 whereas Cardozo is #74. Knowing that you want Biglaw in NYC, obviously Fordham has the edge (and it's a fairly big edge as Cardozo doesn't produce many biglaw associates. See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham. Plus, here's an anecdotal example supporting the same conclusion: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best ... glaw-jobs/).
But, the debt worries me a lot, and I know it worries you too, especially given your age. I'm also concerned about how Biglaw firms will view you as a 33 year associate--you may encounter some hesitation on their part (I've heard of such in the past). Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that you'd acclimate even faster and be more efficient. It literally is impossible to call here so I'm going to make an unusual suggestion that may or may not work. I think you should call the hiring office of a biglaw firm or two and see if you can't find someone who will give you advice here. Explain your situation in a very brief, concise nutshell (don't go more than 30 seconds) and ask if they have any thoughts. It's a longshot, but if you could find one person who could almost serve as a "5-minute mentor," it might set you at ease about your chances and your decision.
I personally fear the debt we are talking about here, because $195K is nothing to sneeze at. But, neither is $90K, so you already know you're going down that path to some extent, it's just a matter now of how far. Is the better ranking worth the extra $100k? It might be but only if you do well (and I can see that you know that by the comment you made about one bad final). It comes down to your commitment to Biglaw, because for that Fordham is the way to go. But I don't think the extra money is really worth the extra boost because once you have that debt, you're stuck with it.
So, I suppose I'd go with the lower debt, but I understand why this is difficult. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Either way, you will need top grades but you'll have to be top 5-8% to pull a Biglaw job. That is a lot of pressure
I wish I could do more here, but there isn't a "best" answer, just what is best for you. Thanks!”
Nikki: “Thank you SO much for taking the time Dave, I really appreciate and will let you know how my calls go!”
Ryan: “Yea Dave this is a hard one. My gf would have to pay about $500 a year for parking and what not at St. John's or like 70k in loans for Fordham... it's deff a difficult decision. It's funny you suggested calling a firm bc I know someone who gave the same advice... after looking at this article I am leaning St. John's because of the cost and my belief that she can finish near the top. One of my best friends is an even L2 #2 in his class at St John's. he will be an additional awesome resource... http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best ... glaw-jobs/ Yes Fordham has way more "Big Law" lawyers but their class size is much bigger... Take the money and run? After visiting Fordham and Saint John's, I would say she is more comfortable at St. John's. Fordham has this colder, we're a good school, fend for urself approach... We shall see... Villanova has been nothing short of great and personable in the pre selection process so they're making it difficult as well…”
Josie: “Hi Nikki, hope this isn't too much of a dumb question...you mentioned Cardozo's offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less than rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it's not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie”
Nikki: Hi Josie! Not silly at all! See this link - Cardozo's non-tuition cost of attendance is $27,414. I round up to $30 because it’s easy (hence why I'm not going for a more math-based career). http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/current-stude ... d-expenses. If you have any other questions let me know!”
Nikki: Hi guys! I am agonizing over this decision and need some input from someone KNOWLEDGEABLE and who knows the state of TODAY'S legal market. I cannot read anymore blogs(especially those from 2010)/get opinions from people who don't know the market! I plan on living and working in NYC. I'm from Long Island so I may move out to the 'burbs again later on but not while in school/shortly thereafter. I’ve received decisions from Fordham and Cardozo. Sticker and Fordham, 100% tuition unconditional at Cardozo. I would love to do biglaw, for the money obviously, but I am completely aware that this is in no way a guarantee, especially with the Columbia/NYU competition. Mostly, I want to be successful and make as much money as possible. I am an older-generation student (I'll be entering at 30) and have worked as a paralegal and taken legal courses to gain a paralegal certificate. I am researching how to study and think(hope) I have a grip on what lies ahead. I am hoping this will translate into a competitive advantage against my younger peers-but again I know anything goes. One bad final and I'm screwed. Anyway, I was hoping to get some input on my choices outlined above. $300k (I'm including NYC COL) for Fordam with more prestige/better employment prospects/potential higher salary? Or free ride with $90k debt (COL only) at Cardozo and hustle for a job with a (very) likely lower salary? Thanks so much for taking the time.”
Nikki: “Hi it's Nikki. I have an update on the above. I was awarded 30k per year at Fordham. I'm leaning towards Fordham but the debt still scares me. I was just wondering if you had and thoughts or input. Thanks so much!”
Dave Killoran: “Hey Nikki, Ok, let's run this down one more time. the choices are:
Fordham, which results in $210K debt after the $30K per year is applied
OR
Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total
Do I have that right? And, are there any other schools still in play at this point? If I have all the facts right, then I'll add some thoughts. Thanks!”
Nikki: “You are correct in the above, except I did a little negotiating and got 5k more per year at Fordham. That was the most they are willing to give. I would SO appreciate your thoughts. I have full ride to st John's and 90% tuition at Brooklyn, but the two main contenders are Fordham and Cardozo. Thanks so much again.”
Ryan: “Nikki, My gf is in almost the exact same situation. She has full rides to several schools but at this point is only considering St. John's, North Eastern, and Villanova. She also has 80% at GMU and 25k a year at Fordham. She is AGONIZING over the best school to choose. She would like to practice BigLaw, but is wondering if the 60k total in loans is worth it for Fordham when she can go to St. John's or Nova on full rides…”
Ryan: “Nikki, How did you go about asking for more money at Fordham? Did u cite specific schools as leverage?”
Nikki: “Hi Ryan! I know this is so so so hard. That's exactly what I did!”
Ryan: “Nikki, Which schools in particular if u dont mind me asking?”
Nikki: “I don't mind...St. John's and Cardozo.”
Dave Killoran:“Hey Nikki, Ok, so the latest situation is:
Fordham, which results in $195K debt after the $35K per year is applied
OR
Cardozo, which results in $90K debt total
In other words, about $100K more in total debt to attend Fordham. Oh boy, this is not easy at all! Law is often a rankings game, and Fordham comes in at #37 whereas Cardozo is #74. Knowing that you want Biglaw in NYC, obviously Fordham has the edge (and it's a fairly big edge as Cardozo doesn't produce many biglaw associates. See https://www.lstreports.com/schools/cardozo/ and https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham. Plus, here's an anecdotal example supporting the same conclusion: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best ... glaw-jobs/).
But, the debt worries me a lot, and I know it worries you too, especially given your age. I'm also concerned about how Biglaw firms will view you as a 33 year associate--you may encounter some hesitation on their part (I've heard of such in the past). Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that you'd acclimate even faster and be more efficient. It literally is impossible to call here so I'm going to make an unusual suggestion that may or may not work. I think you should call the hiring office of a biglaw firm or two and see if you can't find someone who will give you advice here. Explain your situation in a very brief, concise nutshell (don't go more than 30 seconds) and ask if they have any thoughts. It's a longshot, but if you could find one person who could almost serve as a "5-minute mentor," it might set you at ease about your chances and your decision.
I personally fear the debt we are talking about here, because $195K is nothing to sneeze at. But, neither is $90K, so you already know you're going down that path to some extent, it's just a matter now of how far. Is the better ranking worth the extra $100k? It might be but only if you do well (and I can see that you know that by the comment you made about one bad final). It comes down to your commitment to Biglaw, because for that Fordham is the way to go. But I don't think the extra money is really worth the extra boost because once you have that debt, you're stuck with it.
So, I suppose I'd go with the lower debt, but I understand why this is difficult. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Either way, you will need top grades but you'll have to be top 5-8% to pull a Biglaw job. That is a lot of pressure
I wish I could do more here, but there isn't a "best" answer, just what is best for you. Thanks!”
Nikki: “Thank you SO much for taking the time Dave, I really appreciate and will let you know how my calls go!”
Ryan: “Yea Dave this is a hard one. My gf would have to pay about $500 a year for parking and what not at St. John's or like 70k in loans for Fordham... it's deff a difficult decision. It's funny you suggested calling a firm bc I know someone who gave the same advice... after looking at this article I am leaning St. John's because of the cost and my belief that she can finish near the top. One of my best friends is an even L2 #2 in his class at St John's. he will be an additional awesome resource... http://abovethelaw.com/2016/09/the-best ... glaw-jobs/ Yes Fordham has way more "Big Law" lawyers but their class size is much bigger... Take the money and run? After visiting Fordham and Saint John's, I would say she is more comfortable at St. John's. Fordham has this colder, we're a good school, fend for urself approach... We shall see... Villanova has been nothing short of great and personable in the pre selection process so they're making it difficult as well…”
Josie: “Hi Nikki, hope this isn't too much of a dumb question...you mentioned Cardozo's offer was a full ride and still 90K in debt (over the 3 years), What exactly does that 90K include? Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I too will be applying to Cardozo, Fordham, and Villanova and leaning towards Villanova (free ride tuition scholarship) and because the cost of living in PA near villanova is much less than rents/cost of living in the NYC. Ideally my preference though would be to live and go to school in nyc, however the debt I would incur with only partial tuition scholarships, (although a free ride cardozo and unsure about $ fordham will offer) and the cost of living would put me way up there in debt than if i were to choose villanova and lived and worked in PA(philly area). Any insight would be much appreciated!! If it's not too much trouble, advise me on the remaining debt for both cardozo and fordham (90k vs. approx. 300k)? Thank you! Josie”
Nikki: Hi Josie! Not silly at all! See this link - Cardozo's non-tuition cost of attendance is $27,414. I round up to $30 because it’s easy (hence why I'm not going for a more math-based career). http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/current-stude ... d-expenses. If you have any other questions let me know!”