- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:36 pm
#34268
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Claire, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Claire's law school choice, which Dave refers to as "the classic debt vs prestige argument."
Claire: "Hi Dave, I know you've dealt with scenarios very similar to mine, so I apologize if you feel that you've answered this question already.
I was offered a full-ride by The University of Wisconsin Law School. I attended UW for undergrad, Wisconsin is my home state, and I think I want to practice in Milwaukee. I am 99% sure I will accept the offer. However, I am also accepted at Michigan (no scholarship), BU ($90,000 scholarship), and Notre Dame ($105,000 scholarship). My parents heavily favor Wisconsin, as they would like to see me graduate with no debt. That being said, neither of them are lawyers, and they know very little about competing in the legal field. I know several people currently in law school, and they INSIST that I would be a fool not to attend the very best school I get into. All of them suggest that the debt is nothing to worry about, because "a law degree from a top 10 school will pay the debt back tenfold." I don't know if they're just drinking the kool-aid, or if they are actually pushing me in the right direction. Am I shutting doors on myself by going to a #30 school that would otherwise be wide open had I chosen #8?
Thanks so much!I really appreciate your input. Claire"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Claire,
First off, as a native Minnesotan and lifelong Vikings/Twins/Gophers fan, let me apologize to you for your parents deciding to raise you in Wisconsin. That was cruel and unusual of them. You choosing to go to UW is all on you though
All joking aside, you have the classic debt vs prestige argument. Here's what you should do: go look at the debt you would accrue--both via tuition/school costs and moving/living costs in Michigan--and then take a look at the monthly fee needed to service that debt. It's a sobering number. Now, go to the UW number and consider that resulting monthly debt. It's $0 or close to it. So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. And it can't be a hope--it has to be a guarantee. That takes us to a comparison of the relative position of the two schools.
And here I don't see that big number being justified. This isn't #8 vs a 4th tier school; this is #8 vs #30. Wisconsin has an extremely well-regarded law school (not quite as high as Minnesota's though
) and you will have solid prospects when you graduate.
Second, let's look at jobs and geography. If you were dead-set on a biglaw job in NYC and the school in question was Harvard or Columbia vs Wisconsin, then again I could see this debate being more intense. But you're looking at Milwaukee and the other school in question is geographically proximate Michigan. Even if you moved to Chicago, both schools still play well in that market. So again I don't see it being worth the money.
Last, let's talk about your friends who are basically insisting that you take on $273.5K in debt. Two questions: did they receive scholarships to their schools or not (in other words, did they make the same debt-laden choice) and if not, could this be a case of others wanting to pull you down into the same position since misery loves company? Because I can't imagine a current law student isn't at least aware of the fact that there is no such thing as a guaranteed outcome for any school. Sure, Harvard gives you a better chance at certain killer jobs, but there are students at Harvard who are finishing in the bottom half of class and aren't finding it simple, easy, or guaranteed. An internet search should reveal lots of discussions about this exact issue, and it's in no way commonly accepted that pay full ride at a top school is the obvious or right choice!
The motivation of your parents may be monetary, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. This is #30 vs #8--it's close enough that I would stick with the feeling you seem to have that Wisconsin is the better choice (that actually means more than usual given my antipathy towards Wisconsin )
The only way I think you should consider changing your thoughts on this is if Michigan were to come up with a very attractive financial aid package, along the lines of more than 50%.
Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!"
Claire: "You have been incredibly helpful, and I really value your opinion. Looks like gophers and badgers can get along after all! Who knew!"
Dave Killoran: "I could tell your were anxious about this, and that is understandable. If you are still worried you are making the wrong decision, keep researching and talking to people. Talk to as many different people around the legal field as you can, including as many recent *grads* as possible (current law students too, although they are more prone towards confirmation bias). I rarely voice my opinion quite as strongly as I have here but then the decisions are often muddier, and don't often involve a full ride with adjacent access to your practice market of choice
Good luck with the decision and please let me know what you finally choose. Thanks!"
Claire: "Hi Dave, I know you've dealt with scenarios very similar to mine, so I apologize if you feel that you've answered this question already.
I was offered a full-ride by The University of Wisconsin Law School. I attended UW for undergrad, Wisconsin is my home state, and I think I want to practice in Milwaukee. I am 99% sure I will accept the offer. However, I am also accepted at Michigan (no scholarship), BU ($90,000 scholarship), and Notre Dame ($105,000 scholarship). My parents heavily favor Wisconsin, as they would like to see me graduate with no debt. That being said, neither of them are lawyers, and they know very little about competing in the legal field. I know several people currently in law school, and they INSIST that I would be a fool not to attend the very best school I get into. All of them suggest that the debt is nothing to worry about, because "a law degree from a top 10 school will pay the debt back tenfold." I don't know if they're just drinking the kool-aid, or if they are actually pushing me in the right direction. Am I shutting doors on myself by going to a #30 school that would otherwise be wide open had I chosen #8?
Thanks so much!I really appreciate your input. Claire"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Claire,
First off, as a native Minnesotan and lifelong Vikings/Twins/Gophers fan, let me apologize to you for your parents deciding to raise you in Wisconsin. That was cruel and unusual of them. You choosing to go to UW is all on you though
All joking aside, you have the classic debt vs prestige argument. Here's what you should do: go look at the debt you would accrue--both via tuition/school costs and moving/living costs in Michigan--and then take a look at the monthly fee needed to service that debt. It's a sobering number. Now, go to the UW number and consider that resulting monthly debt. It's $0 or close to it. So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. And it can't be a hope--it has to be a guarantee. That takes us to a comparison of the relative position of the two schools.
And here I don't see that big number being justified. This isn't #8 vs a 4th tier school; this is #8 vs #30. Wisconsin has an extremely well-regarded law school (not quite as high as Minnesota's though
) and you will have solid prospects when you graduate. Second, let's look at jobs and geography. If you were dead-set on a biglaw job in NYC and the school in question was Harvard or Columbia vs Wisconsin, then again I could see this debate being more intense. But you're looking at Milwaukee and the other school in question is geographically proximate Michigan. Even if you moved to Chicago, both schools still play well in that market. So again I don't see it being worth the money.
Last, let's talk about your friends who are basically insisting that you take on $273.5K in debt. Two questions: did they receive scholarships to their schools or not (in other words, did they make the same debt-laden choice) and if not, could this be a case of others wanting to pull you down into the same position since misery loves company? Because I can't imagine a current law student isn't at least aware of the fact that there is no such thing as a guaranteed outcome for any school. Sure, Harvard gives you a better chance at certain killer jobs, but there are students at Harvard who are finishing in the bottom half of class and aren't finding it simple, easy, or guaranteed. An internet search should reveal lots of discussions about this exact issue, and it's in no way commonly accepted that pay full ride at a top school is the obvious or right choice!
The motivation of your parents may be monetary, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. This is #30 vs #8--it's close enough that I would stick with the feeling you seem to have that Wisconsin is the better choice (that actually means more than usual given my antipathy towards Wisconsin
) The only way I think you should consider changing your thoughts on this is if Michigan were to come up with a very attractive financial aid package, along the lines of more than 50%.
Please let me know if this helps. Thanks!"
Claire: "You have been incredibly helpful, and I really value your opinion. Looks like gophers and badgers can get along after all! Who knew!"
Dave Killoran: "I could tell your were anxious about this, and that is understandable. If you are still worried you are making the wrong decision, keep researching and talking to people. Talk to as many different people around the legal field as you can, including as many recent *grads* as possible (current law students too, although they are more prone towards confirmation bias). I rarely voice my opinion quite as strongly as I have here but then the decisions are often muddier, and don't often involve a full ride with adjacent access to your practice market of choice
Good luck with the decision and please let me know what you finally choose. Thanks!"