- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:55 pm
#34278
What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Mike, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Mike's law school choice between 5 different schools.
Mike: "Hey Dave, I've narrowed down to 5 schools and I'm not sure what I should do. I'm from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that's my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in Florida so have interested in heading down south. My numbers are as follows:
U Miami: 25k/yr +COL
U of Florida: in state tuition + COL
St John's: 8k/yr + COL
Cardozo: 18k/yr + COL
Hofstra: Full Ride + COL
Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn't want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job. Also, how are big law jobs in Miami? Appreciate your opinion. Thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike, Thanks for the message! Have you run the LST final debt/job analysis I've run in similar discussions? Can you do that here--that's always my starting point
Thanks!"
Mike: "Hey Dave, Thanks for the response. below are the stats (not including cost of living because it is not an issue):
U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) - 75k scholarship = 75k debt
employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) - 114k scholarship = 54k debt
employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) - 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) - 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k - full ride = no debt
employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
Looking forward to your response, thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike,Thanks so much for adding in this update! Just so everyone can see the rankings--which do matter since they reflect general perceptions--I'm going to add those in here:
U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) - 75k scholarship = 75k debt
employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
USNews: #77 ATL: Unranked
Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) - 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
USNews: #41 ATL: 30
Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) - 114k scholarship = 54k debt
employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
USNews: #65 ATL: Unranked
St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) - 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked
Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k - full ride = no debt
employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
USNews: #118 ATL: Unranked
In your earlier comment, you also said: "I'm from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that's my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south...Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn't want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job."
Ok, all of that together allows us to start making some evaluations. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. Only you know the true answers there, so rely on your own judgment
I grouped the two Florida schools together due to market proximity. In the case of Florida and Miami, that lower tuition makes Florida cheaper, and then you can see that their rankings are stronger. Importantly to me, Florida made the ATL Top 50 list, and I like their reliance on costs and job outcomes. So, between Florida and Miami, I'd choose Florida. I like Miami's big city location--and better proximity to the small, tough, but growing Miami biglaw market--but it's hard to beat better reputation and less debt.
With the New York area schools, it would probably be St. Johns for me. I love Hofstra's no debt outcome, but St. John's is only $24K in total debt, and they are much more highly regarded overall (which is reflected in the rankings). I generally like Cardozo, and I know their big firm placement is slightly better than St. John's, but overall job stats are a shade worse and it's also $30K more than St. John's.
So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. Now you get into real decision problems based on where you want to practice and debt levels. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and it's miles away from that NYC market and so doesn't do quite as well with big firm placement. I'd probably go Florida but it's a coin toss. In NYC maybe the uniqueness of being a Florida grad gets you some passing interest vs being a grad of a local school they see tons of people from. I don't like the higher cost but I do like the higher ATL ranking. Tough call.
Please let me know what you think of that breakdown. Thanks!"
Mike: "Hey Dave, Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree that it comes down to Florida and St. John's. I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. When it comes to UF, it's a tough call just because of the NYC opportunities. The school itself and ranking is attractive. I'll let you know what I decide! Thanks again!"
Dave Killoran: "Agree 100%, it's tough to turn down the ranking but if NYC is your target then it gets harder. I'm usually for taking the school with higher prestige when most everything else is close, but how that Florida degree plays in the northeast is not something I'm entirely certain about.
According to LSTReports on the location of Florida grads (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/flor ... /location/), New York received 1.9% of 2015 Florida grads, which was tied for 2nd on the UF placement list (which, not surprisingly, was dominated by the state of Florida = 88.8%, then Georgia = 1.9% and NY = 1.9%). Problem is, 1.9% equals just 5 students, and so the sample is quite small. Thus, those relatively low numbers may have more to do with Florida grads wanting to stay in sunny Florida than with a lack of opportunities presented to grads of the school, but there's no way for us to tell just from the numbers of grads there; we'd need to know how many tried to find employment in NY to have a better picture.
Anyway, best of luck and please let me know what you decide. Thanks!"
Mike: "Hey Dave... Penn State-University Park just got back to me and upped their offer to a full ride + $1,000 book stipend..What are your thoughts on this in comparison to my other options above?
PSU-University Park
US News Ranking: 82
ATL Ranking: Unranked
Employment Score: 53.1%
Under-employment Score: 26.5%
Thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike, Congrats on the full ride! They would probably nose out St. Johns for me in the northeast, but it's very close and I can see St. Johns being someone else's choice. For me, I see Penn State as having an advantage since it's free, and then also I know they've been working on those law schools, and have a stated commitment to making them better. When you can put state university system money behind a school, that can make a difference and hence I suspect in years to come their ranking will be even higher. Big drawback is employment right now."
Mike: "Hey Dave, I've narrowed down to 5 schools and I'm not sure what I should do. I'm from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that's my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in Florida so have interested in heading down south. My numbers are as follows:
U Miami: 25k/yr +COL
U of Florida: in state tuition + COL
St John's: 8k/yr + COL
Cardozo: 18k/yr + COL
Hofstra: Full Ride + COL
Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn't want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job. Also, how are big law jobs in Miami? Appreciate your opinion. Thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike, Thanks for the message! Have you run the LST final debt/job analysis I've run in similar discussions? Can you do that here--that's always my starting point
Thanks!"Mike: "Hey Dave, Thanks for the response. below are the stats (not including cost of living because it is not an issue):
U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) - 75k scholarship = 75k debt
employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) - 114k scholarship = 54k debt
employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) - 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) - 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k - full ride = no debt
employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
Looking forward to your response, thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike,Thanks so much for adding in this update! Just so everyone can see the rankings--which do matter since they reflect general perceptions--I'm going to add those in here:
U Miami Tuition non-discounted (150k) - 75k scholarship = 75k debt
employment/unemployment scores 60.4/19.9
USNews: #77 ATL: Unranked
Florida tuition non-discounted (67k) - 9k scholarship = 58k debt
employment/unemployment scores 76.2/16.2
USNews: #41 ATL: 30
Cardozo tuition non-discounted (168k) - 114k scholarship = 54k debt
employment/unemployment scores 67.7/16.9
USNews: #65 ATL: Unranked
St. Johns tuition non-discounted (165k) - 141k scholarship = 24k debt
employment/unemployment scores 69.8/15.3
USNews: #72 ATL: Unranked
Hofstra tuition non discounted 55k - full ride = no debt
employment/unemployment scores 65.8/22.6
USNews: #118 ATL: Unranked
In your earlier comment, you also said: "I'm from Long Island and want to get into NYC big law.. at least that's my plan for now. I also went to undergrad in florida so have interested in heading down south...Being in Florida would be awesome but I wouldn't want to ruin my chances at a good NYC job."
Ok, all of that together allows us to start making some evaluations. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. Only you know the true answers there, so rely on your own judgment
I grouped the two Florida schools together due to market proximity. In the case of Florida and Miami, that lower tuition makes Florida cheaper, and then you can see that their rankings are stronger. Importantly to me, Florida made the ATL Top 50 list, and I like their reliance on costs and job outcomes. So, between Florida and Miami, I'd choose Florida. I like Miami's big city location--and better proximity to the small, tough, but growing Miami biglaw market--but it's hard to beat better reputation and less debt.
With the New York area schools, it would probably be St. Johns for me. I love Hofstra's no debt outcome, but St. John's is only $24K in total debt, and they are much more highly regarded overall (which is reflected in the rankings). I generally like Cardozo, and I know their big firm placement is slightly better than St. John's, but overall job stats are a shade worse and it's also $30K more than St. John's.
So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. Now you get into real decision problems based on where you want to practice and debt levels. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and it's miles away from that NYC market and so doesn't do quite as well with big firm placement. I'd probably go Florida but it's a coin toss. In NYC maybe the uniqueness of being a Florida grad gets you some passing interest vs being a grad of a local school they see tons of people from. I don't like the higher cost but I do like the higher ATL ranking. Tough call.
Please let me know what you think of that breakdown. Thanks!"
Mike: "Hey Dave, Thanks for the feedback. I totally agree that it comes down to Florida and St. John's. I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. When it comes to UF, it's a tough call just because of the NYC opportunities. The school itself and ranking is attractive. I'll let you know what I decide! Thanks again!"
Dave Killoran: "Agree 100%, it's tough to turn down the ranking but if NYC is your target then it gets harder. I'm usually for taking the school with higher prestige when most everything else is close, but how that Florida degree plays in the northeast is not something I'm entirely certain about.
According to LSTReports on the location of Florida grads (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/flor ... /location/), New York received 1.9% of 2015 Florida grads, which was tied for 2nd on the UF placement list (which, not surprisingly, was dominated by the state of Florida = 88.8%, then Georgia = 1.9% and NY = 1.9%). Problem is, 1.9% equals just 5 students, and so the sample is quite small. Thus, those relatively low numbers may have more to do with Florida grads wanting to stay in sunny Florida than with a lack of opportunities presented to grads of the school, but there's no way for us to tell just from the numbers of grads there; we'd need to know how many tried to find employment in NY to have a better picture.
Anyway, best of luck and please let me know what you decide. Thanks!"
Mike: "Hey Dave... Penn State-University Park just got back to me and upped their offer to a full ride + $1,000 book stipend..What are your thoughts on this in comparison to my other options above?
PSU-University Park
US News Ranking: 82
ATL Ranking: Unranked
Employment Score: 53.1%
Under-employment Score: 26.5%
Thanks"
Dave Killoran: "Hey Mike, Congrats on the full ride! They would probably nose out St. Johns for me in the northeast, but it's very close and I can see St. Johns being someone else's choice. For me, I see Penn State as having an advantage since it's free, and then also I know they've been working on those law schools, and have a stated commitment to making them better. When you can put state university system money behind a school, that can make a difference and hence I suspect in years to come their ranking will be even higher. Big drawback is employment right now."