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 Adam Tyson
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#34968
Hey Frank, I would love to help here, but I cannot find that question in our database. There are a lot of questions about monkeys and a few that mention conservation or conservationists, but none that I have found mention both. No monkey questions at q23 for any section, either. If there is any way you can lay your hands on it again, give us another try. Maybe it was from an unofficial, simulated LSAT, rather than a real one published by LSAC? If that's so, we not only won't have it, we won't want to analyze it, because those unofficial ones are usually too flawed to be of much use, and they do more harm than good in our opinion.

Hope we can help later if you find it!
 fmihalic1477
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#35063
Thanks Adam.

It is definitely from a real LSAT. It's from one of the most recent. Perhaps it hasn't reached the DB just yet? Who knows. When I come across that question in my simulated prep tests I will recognize it and be back here :-D
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 Dave Killoran
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#35222
fmihalic1477 wrote:Thanks Adam.

It is definitely from a real LSAT. It's from one of the most recent. Perhaps it hasn't reached the DB just yet? Who knows. When I come across that question in my simulated prep tests I will recognize it and be back here :-D
It's in there, actually :-D I think "berry" knocked him out when searching it because that's not in the questions stem. It's from December 2008, LR 1, #23, "Ecologist: Without the intervention of conservationists..."

Here's the former discussion on this problem, which was reasonably extensive: lsat/viewtopic.php?t=4484

I'll also move this question over to that test section, so it will never be lost again!
 cindyhylee87
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#68546
Hi PS,

By combining these two premises

preserve forest :arrow: extant monkeys

extant monkeys :arrow: intervention

we know that

preserve forest :arrow:intervention

Can't that to be seen as preserve forest :some: intervention

( From A :arrow: C , we can infer A :some: C and A :most: C)

Hence make (B) correct?

Thanks,
Cindy
 Paul Marsh
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#71173
Hi Cindy! You're right on the money for chaining those two conditionals together. Let me just go over that part quickly in case anyone else doesn't see how you got there. For Must be True questions like this, we want to look for a way to combine two parts of the stimulus together to make an inference. That's especially true when the stimulus uses conditional reasoning. Here, our stimulus gives us one conditional (the first sentence), a second conditional (the second sentence), and a third sentence that doesn't use conditional logic (it uses causal reasoning). With that setup, we can be pretty sure that the inference is going to come from combining those two conditional statements together, since the makers of the LSAT love to test your ability to combine conditional statements (they know it can be rather challenging!). Sure enough, for this stimulus we're able to chain those conditional statements together, just in the way you said:

First conditional: Squirrels survive :arrow: Intervention

Second conditional: Forest preserved :arrow: Squirrels survive

And so, like you did perfectly Cindy, those two conditionals in our stimulus can be combined to make the inference: Forest preserved :arrow: Intervention

Or, to put it in a normal English sentence: if large tracts of second-growth forest are preserved for squirrels, then it was with the intervention of conservationists. Like we do for every conditional, we also want to think about the contrapositive, which here would be: If conservationists do not intervene, then large tracts of second-growth forest will not be preserved for squirrels. That contrapositive matches answer choice (E) almost exactly, so (E) is our right answer.

Now, you got hung up on answer choice (B), and from previous responses in this thread it looks like you're not the first person to do so. But (B) is incorrect for two reasons.

First, (B) is wrong because it is not a conditional but an absolute declaration about what will happen. Let me give a simple example. Let's say we have a conditional that says "If I do the dishes, my apartment will smell better". An incorrect inference from that example would be "Some time in the future I will do the dishes and so my apartment will smell better", because we can't assume that there will ever come a time when I will actually do the dishes. In other words that inference is incorrect because it moves from a conditional ("If...then") to an absolute declaration ("This will happen"). Similarly here, answer choice (B) is assuming that some conservationists will in fact intervene ("the conservationists who intervene to help"), when that's not an assumption we can make. (B) moves from a conditional to an absolute declaration.

But let's say we fix that problem by making answer choice (B) into a conditional. So now it would read something like, "If the conservationists intervene to help the squirrel monkeys survive, then some will do so by preserving second-growth forest habitat for the monkeys." However, it's still an incorrect answer choice! What's the problem now? Well, it's a Mistaken Reversal of our correct inference. Remember, our actual inference from the stimulus is Forest preserved :arrow: Intervention. But our new, conditional version of (B) is saying that Intervention :arrow: Forest preserve. Conditionals can only be read left to right; our correct inference leaves open the possibility that the conservationists intervened in some other way besides preserving the forest, so saying Intervention :arrow: Forest preserve is a Mistaken Reversal and therefore incorrect.

So to sum up, (B) is wrong for two reasons: 1) it's an absolute declaration rather than a conditional and 2) even if it were a conditional, it's a Mistaken Reversal. Hopefully that sheds a little more light on why (E) is right and (B) is wrong.
 lsatbossintraining
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#71826
Hi folks -

I was able to link up conditional statements but selected B.

Do I have the right mechanics? Here's my chain:

FHP = forest habitat preserved
E = extinct
CI = conservationists intervened

Conditional chain: FHP :arrow: ~E :arrow: CI
Contrapositive: ~CI :arrow: E :arrow: ~FHP
Inference (and the correct answer): FHP :arrow: CI

Many thanks!
Kyle
 Adam Tyson
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#71847
Everything in your diagram is perfect, Kyle! But none of that can get us to infer the information in answer B, because we only know what is required, not what will actually occur (and Paul's explanation does a great job of showing the difference between a conditional claim and an absolute one, with his example of doing the dishes). Also, as Paul pointed out, even if B was in conditional form, it would be backwards, because while preservation of the forest proves intervention occurred, intervention cannot prove the forests will be preserved. Perhaps the intervention efforts will fail? It could happen!
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 appletree
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#87309
Hello, I got the diagram correct by luck but I am a bit confused still :(

It says:
"WITHOUT the intervention...WILL become extinct." From what I have learned, without and will are both indicators of necessary conditions, so how do I know which one to use as the necessary?
For the same reason, answer choice E confused me:
"WITHOUT the intervention...habitat WILL not be preserved..."

Thank you!
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 Ryan Twomey
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#87347
Hey Appletree,

You map out the premise as: No intervention-------> Extinct

Here is another exampleI just made up: "Without smoking I will live forever."
I think of without as "if not" so if I do not smoke then I will live forever.


So with answer choice E I would map this out as such:

No intervention----->No preserved
or
Preserved------>Intervention

I hope this helps, and I wish you all of the luck in your studies.

Best,
Ryan

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