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 lathlee
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#34840
Hello.

I remember seeing this in Wikipedia and reminded that this might be conditional reasoning relationship. I ask this question cuz logical reasoning bible ask us to think if any relationship can be conditional, try to practice to make conditional reasoning out of it:

"By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.",

is this conditional reasoning relationship and can be expressed in the following:

If acclamation ---> then, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.
 Kristina Moen
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#34946
Hi lath,

I'm glad you're looking at sentences in this way! It is great practice. I would say that this is not a conditional statement. The word "by" just describes what the following statement is based upon. "By acclamation" would mean that the following sentence "Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time" is based on public approval/acclamation. A conditional relationship is when one thing ALWAYS happens with another thing.
 lathlee
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#35077
I just thought of similar situation, what about "In Love, We can Trust."

Sufficient condition is we trust. Necessary condition would be in love
This statement sounds like: " Without love, trust cannot exist"
Thank you so much as always
 Charlie Melman
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#35132
Hi lathlee,

To make this more LSAT-like, I'd reverse your statement to read, "If love, then we can trust," which would then be Love :arrow: Trust.

Hope this helps!
 lathlee
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#35154
Hi. Thank you so much for the answer.

So Charlie, is this conditional relatiobship or not , "in love, we can trust." How should i treat this as a conditional relatiobship when i see on in lsat questions?

Charlie, i think u meant : if there is a situation presented with other cases of trust, there can be more clues to define this as conditinal relationahip
So if i see u technically analyzed my question statement with two possibilities: with explanatins of othet forms of trust and isnt, on these two cases, how should i perceived both of situations? Should i treat this line as a conditional reasoning relationship in both cases?

Again, thank you so much
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 Dave Killoran
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#35240
Hi Lathlee,

Let's talk a bit about conditional reasoning here, as it applies both in the real world and the LSAT.

First, one of the true dangers of conditionality is that almost anything can be turned into conditionality. This is true for the real world and the LSAT, and one of the comments I make is that it takes a while for you to learn when conditional reasoning is key, and when it's not. I used analogy about driving, and learning over time which other drivers are threats and which are not. This means that often the question isn't whether something can be turned into a conditional statement, but whether it is useful to do so!

If I can generalize for a second, conditional statements that are useful are ones where the sufficiency or necessity seems to tell you something important, or the rigidity and absoluteness of the statement seems useful to the argument or interpreting the effects of the argument. Statements like "To retain goodwill one must please customers" or "Every marsupial has a short gestation period" are typical conditional statements that on the LSAT would likely play some role in answering the question correctly.

Let's now look at your first statement from this perspective: "By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time." If the LSAT referenced Michael Jordan (which would be cool!), would this statement likely be something key to the problem? I personally don't think so, and if I saw this on the test I would not think about it being conditional. Sure, we could diagram it as you suggest, but what value do we get form doing that? the "acclamation" conditional isn't very strong, and while I could set up a conclusion based on acclamation, it's not likely that would occur. This same sort of scenario is true for thousands of other statements on the LSAT, where conditionality or hints of it exist, but the conditional aspect carries no weight in the battle to solve the problem. This last part is the true problem of working with this concept, because you can drown in the flood of statements that contain the kernels of the idea. One of the assignments I often give students who are really putting in serious hours—and Lathlee, I know you have studied a lot, which I love—is to go back to the LR problems that don't contain conditionality as part of the identified concepts that played a role in the correct answers, and to look for conditional statements. When viewed from that angle, it can be illuminating to realize how much conditionality is present that you aren't using to solve the problem. This also helps show why most people over-diagram, and it's the reason I give the advice to diagram sparingly (the whole advice it: learn diagramming inside and out so you can use it effectively when needed, but then find your own comfort level of diagramming, which for most people is infrequent).

My last comment is about your second statement: "In Love, We can Trust." Your diagram is correct: Trust :arrow: Love. That diagram is there because if you take that statement and ask someone about which condition tells you the other occurred, it's Trust that tells you Love, not the other way around. But, this is again a statement where I wouldn't focus on the conditionality. For lack of a better term, it doesn't feel like a strong conditional relationship, and it's like we are torturing the statement to draw out that diagram.

On the other hand, if I saw, "Without love, trust cannot exist" in an LSAT problem, that would strike me as a statement where the conditionality is likely to play a bigger role, and I would at least take note of that relationship (some people would diagram it, and that's fine; I might or might not, depends on my mood that day :-D ). the statement is strong and clear, and the other is making a point of letting the reader know that the relationship there is strong and unwavering. that's the kind of conditional statement that often plays a role.

I actually need to think a bit more about how to enunciate what I'm saying here, because it's a point that comes up enough that I want a clearer expression of what I'm saying. But, at least as far as what I've written above, does the idea I'm getting at make sense to you? Conditionality is everywhere, but usually it's not important. The key is to learn how the LSAT uses the idea so you can recognize when it will play a primary role, or at least be helpful in solving the question.

Please let me know what you think. Thanks!
 lathlee
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#35259
Hey David,

This is Lathlee.

Is there any studying prep recommend/ a course for this person to mastering conditional relationship better than my current status? It seems like you are saying that I have some anxiety over it which causes to over-analyze the situation with conditional relationship tools. If I have more and better practices, I would be more confident and thus likely less anxious about it.

FYI:In order to give you updates about my current status which would help you to judge my status: I finished doing all lesson 1-12 books, currently making all the logic bible's concept as my second nature by making Q cards with 2016 materials complementing the q cards i purchased as second hand back in 2011. I have many portions of wrong questions, in book 1-12 and 2016 updated which I plan to re-attack them when I successfully make LSAT logic bible as my second natures when i encounter logic problems.

Thank you for the consideration ,
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 Dave Killoran
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#35274
Hi Lathlee,

I wasn't suggesting that you had any anxiety over it, but rather that you might be overemphasizing the concept, or at least looking for it in places where it wasn't really useful. To make a very rough analogy, it would be like you are learning ultimate fighting, and they teach you how to do a roundhouse kick. You try it out a few times, and it works amazingly well. At that point, you kind of want to do it every single time, but that's overkill. Conditionality is the same kind of thing. When you first see it work and how easy it can make some problems, you want to find it all the time and use it. But, if you do it too much, it's overkill and it loses utility. That's not the best analogy I've ever made, but hopefully it does the job here :-D

From what I've seen your understanding and diagramming of the statements is good (so, you can recognize them and you know how to process them). The second half of the success equation is understanding when a conditional statement will be pivotal within a problem. That's harder because it is less defined, but we know that many conditional statements in LR never play a key role in solving the problem. How, then, do you figure out what's important and what isn't? One of the best tips possible was in that prior post when I mentioned looking for conditional statement in problems that don't rely on conditionality. compare problems like that with the problems where it is key—how are they similar, how are they different? How were the statements phrased in each case and do you see any noticeable patterns in that phrasing and presentation that would help you better sense when a conditional statement is going to be key and when it's not?

There is no course of study that specifically addresses what I'm talking about, but the sense I'm referring to is a byproduct of all the studying you have done. It's like a dial, and now you have to find the middle setting that allows you to see when it will be key and when it won't be.

Please let me know if that helps. Thanks!
 lathlee
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#35312
Dear David,

sorry i took sometime to respond, ur messages were long and contained deep meanings.
Of course, as always, ur answer helped me a lot. I actually dropped some tears that you took such long time to inform me that how I am overthinking conditional relationship when it comes to solving logic problems; you are right.

as when I was doing some logic questions in logical reasoning, i used conditional relationship quite a lot which now i think it should not even used in first place, then still got the wrong questions then I got angry with myself and Logic bible instructions.

Now, I can see where I went wrong in some of the question process.
 lathlee
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#35582
I am so sorry to ask this question again but it made me think in conditional reasoning way:

I saw Michael Jordan saying why Failure is Never a Final. (I watch a lot of documentaries about his career, cuz he is so inspirational)

I thought does Never work in a way of Only. with negation spin.

Let's say I see a sentence in logical question, "I am never a failure." conditional reasoning wise, can it form a strong enough and worthwhile to think in the following manner of conditional relationship of
If I :arrow: Negation of (a failure.)
in order to get a question correctly

Or why Failure is Never a Final = If Failure :arrow: Negation of (Final)

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