- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:34 am
#37302
Below is a transcript of a conversation between a student, Jess, and one of our Admissions experts, Dave, regarding Jess's law school decision.
Jess: "Hey Dave, I'm trying to decide between GMU and GW, both with big scholarships. I like the D.C/Virginia area and would feel comfortable working there for the foreseeable future, although GW seems to give a little more mobility in terms of employment. I'm very debt-averse, so even with the large scholarship at GW, 42k is still a lot to me in terms of debt. LST seems to indicate the employment scores for the two are relatively similar, so I'm not sure if GW is worth the additional debt when I could go to GMU four miles away for a total of 8k. I've already signed a lease in the area, so I intend to go to one of these two law schools this August. I could've waited until next cycle and tried for a t14, but I can't stomach that amount of debt when I'm not committed to getting biglaw. My parents think I should take the less expensive option, and I don't know any lawyers I could ask.
George Washington tuition non-discounted (174k) - 132k scholarship = 42k debt
LST employment/unemployment scores 67.2/10.1 underemployed 19.5%
Ranking: USNews: #30 ATL: 34
George Mason tuition non-discounted (122k) - 114k scholarship = 8k debt
LST employment/unemployment scores 64.7/6.8 underemployed 12%
Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: N/A"
Dave Killoran: "Jess,Thanks for the question! This is really tough for me. On a relative scale, $42K isn't bad, and since I love ATL's ratings, that #31 is appealing. but your parents also have a point: leaving with just $8K is akin to a free education. That's pretty hard to pass up!
The one question I want to ask you is: do you see yourself at GMU? Because your happiness will be critically important to how well you perform in law school, and how well you perform is going to be critical to the jobs you can obtain. If you like GMU and see yourself there, I see no reason to not go there. But if you can't or prefer GW, then you need to consider that carefully.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!"
Jess: "Hey Dave, thanks for responding so quickly! I really appreciate your insight. I do like the location of GMU and the fact that it's a smaller school. My hesitation is that going there essentially rules out almost any chance of biglaw or a federal clerkship, whereas 35% of GW grads will get those positions. I don't know for sure if I'd want to do biglaw or clerk, but GMU doesn't really give me the option. So that's why it's such a hard choice for me."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jess, you are correct about GMU placing at a lower rate in those jobs (here are the numbers for anyone else reading, per https://www.lstreports.com/national/) compared to GW:
GW: Fed Clerkship = 3.8%
Big firm = 23.4%
GMU: Fed Clerkship = 1.5%
Big firm = 9%
This is exactly where the tradeoff here becomes apparent: certain job prospects are sacrificed in order to obtain the lower fees. There's one school of thought that says that saving $34K is small potatoes compared to the possible income loss by not having these options, but that is true only if those jobs interest you AND you can obtain one. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs.
The best advice I can offer here is to take some time to research big firm jobs and clerkships, the type of work required, and the options they create in your working life. If the option is something you conclude is necessary for your future, then you'll make one decision. If you determine that when is all is said and done that those options aren't that important, then you'll make a different decision. But right now is the time to look very carefully because the decision you make has real consequences regardless of which direction you take.
I hope that helps, and good luck!"
Jess: "Hey Dave, I'm trying to decide between GMU and GW, both with big scholarships. I like the D.C/Virginia area and would feel comfortable working there for the foreseeable future, although GW seems to give a little more mobility in terms of employment. I'm very debt-averse, so even with the large scholarship at GW, 42k is still a lot to me in terms of debt. LST seems to indicate the employment scores for the two are relatively similar, so I'm not sure if GW is worth the additional debt when I could go to GMU four miles away for a total of 8k. I've already signed a lease in the area, so I intend to go to one of these two law schools this August. I could've waited until next cycle and tried for a t14, but I can't stomach that amount of debt when I'm not committed to getting biglaw. My parents think I should take the less expensive option, and I don't know any lawyers I could ask.
George Washington tuition non-discounted (174k) - 132k scholarship = 42k debt
LST employment/unemployment scores 67.2/10.1 underemployed 19.5%
Ranking: USNews: #30 ATL: 34
George Mason tuition non-discounted (122k) - 114k scholarship = 8k debt
LST employment/unemployment scores 64.7/6.8 underemployed 12%
Ranking: USNews: #41 ATL: N/A"
Dave Killoran: "Jess,Thanks for the question! This is really tough for me. On a relative scale, $42K isn't bad, and since I love ATL's ratings, that #31 is appealing. but your parents also have a point: leaving with just $8K is akin to a free education. That's pretty hard to pass up!
The one question I want to ask you is: do you see yourself at GMU? Because your happiness will be critically important to how well you perform in law school, and how well you perform is going to be critical to the jobs you can obtain. If you like GMU and see yourself there, I see no reason to not go there. But if you can't or prefer GW, then you need to consider that carefully.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!"
Jess: "Hey Dave, thanks for responding so quickly! I really appreciate your insight. I do like the location of GMU and the fact that it's a smaller school. My hesitation is that going there essentially rules out almost any chance of biglaw or a federal clerkship, whereas 35% of GW grads will get those positions. I don't know for sure if I'd want to do biglaw or clerk, but GMU doesn't really give me the option. So that's why it's such a hard choice for me."
Dave Killoran: "Hi Jess, you are correct about GMU placing at a lower rate in those jobs (here are the numbers for anyone else reading, per https://www.lstreports.com/national/) compared to GW:
GW: Fed Clerkship = 3.8%
Big firm = 23.4%
GMU: Fed Clerkship = 1.5%
Big firm = 9%
This is exactly where the tradeoff here becomes apparent: certain job prospects are sacrificed in order to obtain the lower fees. There's one school of thought that says that saving $34K is small potatoes compared to the possible income loss by not having these options, but that is true only if those jobs interest you AND you can obtain one. The other school of thought says that nothing is guaranteed, but that debt is real and non-dischargeable, and thus to be avoided at all costs.
The best advice I can offer here is to take some time to research big firm jobs and clerkships, the type of work required, and the options they create in your working life. If the option is something you conclude is necessary for your future, then you'll make one decision. If you determine that when is all is said and done that those options aren't that important, then you'll make a different decision. But right now is the time to look very carefully because the decision you make has real consequences regardless of which direction you take.
I hope that helps, and good luck!"