- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:19 pm
#37973
Below is a transcript of a conversation between a student, Maggie, and one of our Admissions experts, Dave, regarding Maggie's law school decision.
Maggie: "Hello, I am trying to choose between UC Berkeley, UCLA, The University of Chicago, and U Michigan. I have ruled out Michigan and UCLA for several factors that are not relevant to this discussion. I also have a full ride scholarship to a school ranked between between 30 and 22 (it has fluctuated for the years).
I have no scholarship at either Berkeley or University of Chicago. Full Sticker on both.
For full sticker price, which is going to maximize my odds of landing a job in Big Law job out of law school? Does it matter that one is ranked 4th and the other 12th? How much does it matter?
If one can do better at Berkeley (Law Review for example) but not as well as UChicago (but still get good grades at Chicago, but good lets say some B's and some A's), would there be a more clear answer to which option is the better option.
Is it worth paying sticker at both than it is to attend a school ranked in the mid-20's?
Thank you. MW"
Dave Killoran: "Hi MW, This is kind of the golden question, as to whether a full ride at a T25 or so school is a better choice than full boat at the #4 ranked school. As you may have noticed, there's not an answer that is the same for every person. It depends on your job goals, your debt tolerance, your geographical preferences, and even your belief in yourself. For example, if you wanted to be a law professor and absolutely have your heart set on it, that changes the parameters of your decision. Now, you mentioned biglaw, which happens to be notoriously name-sensitive. Here's the comparison:
Chicago: Large Firm = 61.4%
Berkeley: Large Firm = 49.7%
(and Chicago does about 5% on clerkships too, which are key: 16% vs 11%)
Is that worth the approximately $68K more you pay at Chicago? For me personally it probably would be since once you're at that debt level I'd go for the best possible outcome; for you, though, I don't know. I don't know how debt averse you are, I don't know which school you might thrive at, and I don't know so many factors here that would truly make this decision.
So, I recommend very strongly that you run all the analyses I've talked about in my responses above, from a debt analysis to a jobs analysis. Even looks at rankings, such as ATL's (http://abovethelaw.com/law-school-ranki ... w-schools/), which puts Chicago #2 and Berkeley #12. Ask yourself which gives you the best pathway for you, and how set you are on those goals."
Maggie: "Hello Dave, Thank for your fast reply.
I have utilized the sites you reference regularly (Law School Transparency and ATL) for some insight, but still no clear answer.
Which choice between UChicago and Berkeley would be better for academia?
How much of a difference is there in rankings translated into the real world, even if the two extremes of ranking (#2 v. @12 are assumed)? (will law firms care; will future academic hiring care)
Would it matter that one has Law Review at the #12 and no law review at the #2? (would law journal participation matter at all if the journal is not the flagship journal for a school)
Thank you for what you do.
MW"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Maggie, All these factors matter and that's why it's so hard to say which is "best." Chicago is the better ranked school and it has better job placement and better clerkship placement. It's a cut above Berkeley when everything else is ignored. But is it best for you? I can't say
If you went to Berkeley and received better grades and made law review, and only did middling at Chicago, then Berkeley would likely turn out better for you. and that's the problem--we can't see into the future.
Clerkship placement (especially federal placement) is a really good indicator to me of how these schools are regarded because these are the most desirable jobs, and they often set up the receiver in a great position for academia or biglaw. You can see Chicago at 16.7% federal placement (better than a 1 in 8 chance!) vs Berkeley at 11.8% (still great, just not nearly as good as Chicago). So, if you're looking for a straight answer about academia chances based just on placement numbers (which I don't recommend), then it's Chicago. And yes, hiring partners at law firms know all this too
I always tell students to go where they feel most comfortable because that will help you perform at your best. Both of these schools are great, and either one can provide a platform for success. But much of your outcome will depend on how you perform once you arrive.
Good luck!"
Maggie: "Hello, I am trying to choose between UC Berkeley, UCLA, The University of Chicago, and U Michigan. I have ruled out Michigan and UCLA for several factors that are not relevant to this discussion. I also have a full ride scholarship to a school ranked between between 30 and 22 (it has fluctuated for the years).
I have no scholarship at either Berkeley or University of Chicago. Full Sticker on both.
For full sticker price, which is going to maximize my odds of landing a job in Big Law job out of law school? Does it matter that one is ranked 4th and the other 12th? How much does it matter?
If one can do better at Berkeley (Law Review for example) but not as well as UChicago (but still get good grades at Chicago, but good lets say some B's and some A's), would there be a more clear answer to which option is the better option.
Is it worth paying sticker at both than it is to attend a school ranked in the mid-20's?
Thank you. MW"
Dave Killoran: "Hi MW, This is kind of the golden question, as to whether a full ride at a T25 or so school is a better choice than full boat at the #4 ranked school. As you may have noticed, there's not an answer that is the same for every person. It depends on your job goals, your debt tolerance, your geographical preferences, and even your belief in yourself. For example, if you wanted to be a law professor and absolutely have your heart set on it, that changes the parameters of your decision. Now, you mentioned biglaw, which happens to be notoriously name-sensitive. Here's the comparison:
Chicago: Large Firm = 61.4%
Berkeley: Large Firm = 49.7%
(and Chicago does about 5% on clerkships too, which are key: 16% vs 11%)
Is that worth the approximately $68K more you pay at Chicago? For me personally it probably would be since once you're at that debt level I'd go for the best possible outcome; for you, though, I don't know. I don't know how debt averse you are, I don't know which school you might thrive at, and I don't know so many factors here that would truly make this decision.
So, I recommend very strongly that you run all the analyses I've talked about in my responses above, from a debt analysis to a jobs analysis. Even looks at rankings, such as ATL's (http://abovethelaw.com/law-school-ranki ... w-schools/), which puts Chicago #2 and Berkeley #12. Ask yourself which gives you the best pathway for you, and how set you are on those goals."
Maggie: "Hello Dave, Thank for your fast reply.
I have utilized the sites you reference regularly (Law School Transparency and ATL) for some insight, but still no clear answer.
Which choice between UChicago and Berkeley would be better for academia?
How much of a difference is there in rankings translated into the real world, even if the two extremes of ranking (#2 v. @12 are assumed)? (will law firms care; will future academic hiring care)
Would it matter that one has Law Review at the #12 and no law review at the #2? (would law journal participation matter at all if the journal is not the flagship journal for a school)
Thank you for what you do.
MW"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Maggie, All these factors matter and that's why it's so hard to say which is "best." Chicago is the better ranked school and it has better job placement and better clerkship placement. It's a cut above Berkeley when everything else is ignored. But is it best for you? I can't say
If you went to Berkeley and received better grades and made law review, and only did middling at Chicago, then Berkeley would likely turn out better for you. and that's the problem--we can't see into the future.
Clerkship placement (especially federal placement) is a really good indicator to me of how these schools are regarded because these are the most desirable jobs, and they often set up the receiver in a great position for academia or biglaw. You can see Chicago at 16.7% federal placement (better than a 1 in 8 chance!) vs Berkeley at 11.8% (still great, just not nearly as good as Chicago). So, if you're looking for a straight answer about academia chances based just on placement numbers (which I don't recommend), then it's Chicago. And yes, hiring partners at law firms know all this too
I always tell students to go where they feel most comfortable because that will help you perform at your best. Both of these schools are great, and either one can provide a platform for success. But much of your outcome will depend on how you perform once you arrive.
Good luck!"