Name vs. money decision when choosing a law school

[Peter deVries]

What follows is the transcript of a conversation between a student, Dakota, and one of our Admissions gurus, Dave, regarding Dakota's decision between Fordham and Penn.


Dakota: “Hi Dave, I'm currently grappling to decide between Fordham with $135,000 scholarship, and Penn, with no money. It seems that the two are in completely different ranks... It would be really hard for me to turn down a prestigious opportunity like attending Penn for a school without as much name or reach, like Fordham. At the same time, being in debt from attending Penn at sticker could affect the rest of my life. I likely want to work in New York City upon graduation, but I am not NYC or bust. I'd like to consider the option of working for government in DC. What do you think? Am I throwing out an amazing opportunity by attending Fordham instead of Penn? Is there even a discussion between the two schools? I would really love to go to Penn, though I feel that a big part of my interest is the prestige, and I'm not sure that's a good enough reason. Thanks!”

Dave Killoran: “Hey Dakota, Well, what you have is the classic name vs money decision, which is probably the toughest one in the admissions world. Whereas in some cases I have a strong feeling about what to do, in this one I don't. So, let's break it down. First, what's the exact financial outcome for each. I'll use the LST Reports:

• https://www.lstreports.com/schools/fordham/ -- Non-discounted cost of $307K - $135K scholarship = $172K debt.
• https://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/ -- Non-discounted cost of $320K - $0K scholarship = $320K debt.

So, a significant difference there. And one, that as you rightly note, could follow you around and affect the rest of your life.
Now, are the job prospect differences enough to make a difference. Again, back to LST:

• Fordham: Employment score = 66.8% / Under Employment = 17.8%
• Penn: Employment score = 89.8% / Under Employment = 4.9%

Again, a significant difference, and you can see that while you pay more, your job outcomes are better from Penn (and they better be, for that price!). By the way, pay close attention to the graduate outcomes box in the lower right. Penn has 66.3% grads going into large firms and 10.6% into Federal clerkship jobs (highly coveted). Fordham? 33.7% grads going into large firms and 1.7% into Federal clerkship jobs. In other words, Penn provides a 76% chance of large firm/clerk jobs, whereas Fordham is about 35%. they are, as you say, in very different classes.

At this point, it's about what happens with the individual. Because although at Fordham you have less leeway for a bad exam or bad day, when you look at Penn there are still people struggling coming out of that school. Not everyone gets what they want, and there's problem: if you could guarantee that you are in the positive outcome group, then Penn is a reasonable call, but you can't guarantee that. And so it comes down to how you feel about all sorts of factors, including the environment at each school, how confident you are in your abilities, and so on.

I don't know the best decision here for you, mainly because I don't know you I am generally debt-averse but I understand the pull of Penn here. Do you have any other admittances in the T14 or even T20 that gave you money that you could use to bargain with Penn? For example, maybe Duke gave you $20K a year? If so, use that as leverage and ask Penn for an improved aid package.

Sorry, there's no "right" answer here but hopefully this gave you something to think about. Good luck!”

Dakota: “Hi Dave, Thanks for your input. It's a classic and difficult position indeed!

Unfortunately I don't have money at other T14s... I was waitlisted at Duke + Berkeley, rejected at Cornell, and given nothing at Georgetown. I do have $30k (total) from UCLA and $105k from GW, but I don't feel there is much in either of those in terms of negotiating with Penn. What do you think? Thanks!”

Dave Killoran: “Hey Dakota, Yes, you are exactly right--#15 UCLA and #30 GW won't open the door to negotiating with #7 Penn. UCLA is obviously the closest, but the $30K total isn't enough to make Penn feel like it's competitive and something they'd need to match. So, you are probably in a position where what's on the table is what you have to work with :/ I wish I could say something more insightful but basically comes down to how you feel here about the debt and the job prospects. This is now prestige vs lower debt, and there are going to be people who feel strongly on both sides of that debate. Sometimes I would say "what does your gut say here?" but instead I'm going to say: "After weighing all the factors, which seems like the safer path?"”

Dakota: "Thanks so much for your response. A rather unexpected event developed over the last two days - Penn offered me $30,000 scholarship (total over 3 years) and I received about $75k in grants from them. I'm shocked and thrilled! I will still need to take on considerable debt to go there, but at least I won't be paying sticker. This is a huge help. At this point, my choice seems like a no-brainer. My question to you is: Is there any point in trying to negotiate and squeeze a bit more out of them? As you know, I really don't have comparable offers, but do you feel there's harm in trying? Will I come off as ungrateful and too forward to ask for anything more? I'll be going to their ASW this weekend and am considering stopping by their financial aid office... What do you think?"

Dave Killoran: "Hey Dakota, Congrats on that news--that is awesome! My first reaction was one with a small bit of concern, but once I heard that you'd be stopping by in person to make this pitch, those concerns went away. Doing it in person allows you to control and massage the message and convey it in a super-friendly, non-threatening way. As long as you do that, I'm all for it.

One tip: I'd probably keep your request relatively small and try to be specific. A pitch along the lines of, "If you could increase the offer $4500 a year, it would position me to finalize my acceptance right now" is much easier for an admissions officer to process and approve than, "I am hoping to get a better aid package--what more can you do for me to put me in a position to enroll?"

Good luck and please write back and let me know how it goes! I'd love to hear what you said and how they responded. And, congrats once again "

Dakota: "I will keep you updated! I will be nervous doing it in person, but yet I'm confident that I can deliver the message as you proposed, in a non-threatening, and friendly way. I can't thank you enough for your responsiveness and advice - it has been extremely helpful. Thank you!"

Dakota: "Hi Dave! I went to Penn's ASW and met with the director of financial aid. You were 100% correct about being able to massage the message. He pretty well knew I had nothing competing with their award, but offered to try and tweak my package, and he did! It was very kind of him. I was a bit too nervous and awkward to ask for a specific amount of money (am going to need to work on that skill...), but he was able to increase my total award by about $7k. Woohoo!

Thank you so much for your help and advice. I felt much more comfortable going into his office having heard your thoughts, and I wholly appreciate the time you took to help me. Thanks again!"

[futurelawyer24]

Hi,

I am in a similar situation as Dakota deciding between the two schools, except with 90K total at Fordham. However, I have pretty much come to terms with paying full price at Penn if that is ultimately the best place for me. I want to be in New York after law school but believe that Penn's placement in this market is still strong. I really loved Penn and don't think I should turn down such a prestigious school and amazing opportunity. However, I have been thinking that if I were to attend Penn I would have to work extremely hard to be in a top percentage of my class, whereas the same effort may put me in a higher percentage at Fordham. Would graduating with a Penn degree in itself put me in a better job opportunity than would potentially getting higher grades at Fordham? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the comparison of the rigor of each school, and how class rankings really play into job outcomes at both. Thanks!

[Dave Killoran]

Hi,

I am in a similar situation as Dakota deciding between the two schools, except with 90K total at Fordham. However, I have pretty much come to terms with paying full price at Penn if that is ultimately the best place for me. I want to be in New York after law school but believe that Penn's placement in this market is still strong. I really loved Penn and don't think I should turn down such a prestigious school and amazing opportunity. However, I have been thinking that if I were to attend Penn I would have to work extremely hard to be in a top percentage of my class, whereas the same effort may put me in a higher percentage at Fordham. Would graduating with a Penn degree in itself put me in a better job opportunity than would potentially getting higher grades at Fordham? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the comparison of the rigor of each school, and how class rankings really play into job outcomes at both. Thanks!

Hi Future,

If you are looking at Fordham at ~$217K debt vs Penn at full ride (~$320K), I'd tilt towards Penn at that point. The discount for attending Fordham isn't strong enough in my opinion to offset the pure employment power you get coming from Penn.

Also, don't assume that you'll somehow do better at Fordham do to supposedly lesser competition. There are way too many factors in play to assume you'll automatically do better there, and I've watched many people make that same assumption and then get surprised by the reality of law school (and often, they intended to transfer and then couldn't). The truth is you will work extremely hard at either place!

Thanks!