- PowerScore Staff
- Posts: 9010
- Joined: Feb 02, 2011
- Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:49 am
#76534
Below is a conversation between a law student and PowerScore CEO Dave Killoran, regarding the student's law school transfer option.
Anonymous: "Hi Dave,
I wanted to post this anonymously as I am a potential transfer student. I just completed my first year at Villanova where I have a scholarship worth 40k/ a year. I applied to transfer to a few schools in the D.C./ Virginia area since that is eventually the area I want to practice. I was admitted to GW, my original first choice, with no financial aid.
While I think GW is the school I will do better at, the financial impact is scary, 93k cost of attendance x 2 years= 186k. I am scared that while I think GW is the better option, it may not be worth the financial burden compared to Villanova.
Any thoughts? It would also only be for two years which makes it a little easier to stomach.
Thank you,"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Anon,
I guess it depends on what “I think GW is the school I will do better at” is referring to. As in, you’ll perform better there and like it more? Or that your job outcomes will be better? Or, perhaps, both?
If it’s about performance and enjoyment, then it could easily be worth it as a higher class rank will typically translate into better results. If it’s about job outcomes, I’m less certain that’s a good trade. GW is a huge school (esp compared to Nova), and pushing that many grads into a DC market that is covered by other good schools (Gtown) and in a generally coveted location (politics) doesn’t make their employment numbers all that amazing (a comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gw/villanova/). That’s a big price tag to pay for what’s not a major step up in employment outcomes. There are times when you compare two schools, and you can see the power differential so clearly–you see it elsewhere in some of my replies to students in this thread. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:
GW: 2.2% + 27.7% = 29.9%
Villanova: 1.4% + 15.2% = 16.6%
That’s a lot of debt for a 13.3% improvement over where you are. I’d rather see a 40% difference for that kind of expense. Compare, for example, Northwestern:
Northwestern: 9.1% + 65.9% = 75%
I add them in randomly because that’s what top school numbers look like. You’re paying for a 75% chance at a top-level job, which is a pretty good bet for most people. GW comes in under 30%, and that’s just not impressive enough to me to throw all that money at it. But wait, there’s more
Note though, that where you draw the line makes a difference. Let’s say I added state/local clerkships and expanded the firms to 100+ attorneys. Note the change:
GW: 9.2% + 31.1% = 40.3%
Villanova: 23.2% + 22.3% = 45.5%
In other words, as far as top-tier jobs, GW has a biglaw edge, but as far as what happens to those outside of the top echelon, Villanova is equal if not better (there’s a clear strategy at Villanova, if those clerkship numbers are right, to place students with state/local judges).
So, I would take a long hard look at what you are paying for and your career goals. From a debt standpoint, this is a lot to pay for what I perceive as a not-overwhelming improvement in outcomes.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!"
Anonymous: "Hi Dave,
Thank you very much for your quick response. This was extremely helpful and framed the discussion about career opportunities/ benefits in a way I had not previously considered and has definitely led me to look into some other things!
As a quick follow up, my biggest concern with Nova is limiting myself to the Philadelphia market. I noticed in one of your previous replies you noted that a student should feel comfortable settling in the Philadelphia area if they attend Nova and that is something I am worried about.
When I mentioned earlier that GW is the school “I will do better at” I was more thinking in terms of getting exposure to employers in that market. So with that in mind and my long term goal being to wind up in D.C., would your analysis change at all or stay the same?
Thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Anon,
Glad I could help! Villanova doesn’t have much placement in DC from the available numbers, but that data is also limited. I’d contact their career services office and talk to them about DC placements. It’s clearly not huge, but it might be more than the the 0% the data currently hows.
If it does turn out to be 0% (and I don’t expect that), then you have a bit of an issue. It would likely mean that your first job would have to be in Pennsylvania, and then after that you could look for DC-area employment. If that’s not tenable for you, then in a sense you’ve made the decision–if you really want DC out of the gate and Nova has little to no pull there, then what other choice do you have but to transfer to GW?
I’d start with the career services office as that will help make the data clearer! Good luck and please keep me posted!"
Anonymous: "Hi Dave,
I wanted to post this anonymously as I am a potential transfer student. I just completed my first year at Villanova where I have a scholarship worth 40k/ a year. I applied to transfer to a few schools in the D.C./ Virginia area since that is eventually the area I want to practice. I was admitted to GW, my original first choice, with no financial aid.
While I think GW is the school I will do better at, the financial impact is scary, 93k cost of attendance x 2 years= 186k. I am scared that while I think GW is the better option, it may not be worth the financial burden compared to Villanova.
Any thoughts? It would also only be for two years which makes it a little easier to stomach.
Thank you,"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Anon,
I guess it depends on what “I think GW is the school I will do better at” is referring to. As in, you’ll perform better there and like it more? Or that your job outcomes will be better? Or, perhaps, both?
If it’s about performance and enjoyment, then it could easily be worth it as a higher class rank will typically translate into better results. If it’s about job outcomes, I’m less certain that’s a good trade. GW is a huge school (esp compared to Nova), and pushing that many grads into a DC market that is covered by other good schools (Gtown) and in a generally coveted location (politics) doesn’t make their employment numbers all that amazing (a comparison: https://www.lstreports.com/compare/gw/villanova/). That’s a big price tag to pay for what’s not a major step up in employment outcomes. There are times when you compare two schools, and you can see the power differential so clearly–you see it elsewhere in some of my replies to students in this thread. Using a simple power ranking metric (fed clerkships + large firm jobs (250 or more)), you get the following comparison:
GW: 2.2% + 27.7% = 29.9%
Villanova: 1.4% + 15.2% = 16.6%
That’s a lot of debt for a 13.3% improvement over where you are. I’d rather see a 40% difference for that kind of expense. Compare, for example, Northwestern:
Northwestern: 9.1% + 65.9% = 75%
I add them in randomly because that’s what top school numbers look like. You’re paying for a 75% chance at a top-level job, which is a pretty good bet for most people. GW comes in under 30%, and that’s just not impressive enough to me to throw all that money at it. But wait, there’s more
Note though, that where you draw the line makes a difference. Let’s say I added state/local clerkships and expanded the firms to 100+ attorneys. Note the change:
GW: 9.2% + 31.1% = 40.3%
Villanova: 23.2% + 22.3% = 45.5%
In other words, as far as top-tier jobs, GW has a biglaw edge, but as far as what happens to those outside of the top echelon, Villanova is equal if not better (there’s a clear strategy at Villanova, if those clerkship numbers are right, to place students with state/local judges).
So, I would take a long hard look at what you are paying for and your career goals. From a debt standpoint, this is a lot to pay for what I perceive as a not-overwhelming improvement in outcomes.
Please let me know what you think. Thanks!"
Anonymous: "Hi Dave,
Thank you very much for your quick response. This was extremely helpful and framed the discussion about career opportunities/ benefits in a way I had not previously considered and has definitely led me to look into some other things!
As a quick follow up, my biggest concern with Nova is limiting myself to the Philadelphia market. I noticed in one of your previous replies you noted that a student should feel comfortable settling in the Philadelphia area if they attend Nova and that is something I am worried about.
When I mentioned earlier that GW is the school “I will do better at” I was more thinking in terms of getting exposure to employers in that market. So with that in mind and my long term goal being to wind up in D.C., would your analysis change at all or stay the same?
Thank you!"
Dave Killoran: "Hi Anon,
Glad I could help! Villanova doesn’t have much placement in DC from the available numbers, but that data is also limited. I’d contact their career services office and talk to them about DC placements. It’s clearly not huge, but it might be more than the the 0% the data currently hows.
If it does turn out to be 0% (and I don’t expect that), then you have a bit of an issue. It would likely mean that your first job would have to be in Pennsylvania, and then after that you could look for DC-area employment. If that’s not tenable for you, then in a sense you’ve made the decision–if you really want DC out of the gate and Nova has little to no pull there, then what other choice do you have but to transfer to GW?
I’d start with the career services office as that will help make the data clearer! Good luck and please keep me posted!"